« previous | MUCK HOME | next »
Exclusive: Bush Nixed Dem-DNI FISA Deal
Today, while standing with Director of National Intelligence Mike McConnell, President Bush lamented the inability of Congressional Democrats to give McConnell the tools he needed to capture the communications of terrorists:
When Congress sends me their version, when Congress listens to all the data and facts and they send me a version of how to close those gaps, I'll ask one question, and I'm going to ask the DNI: Does this legislation give you what you need to prevent an attack on the country? Is this what you need to do your job, Mr. DNI? That's the question I'm going to ask. And if the answer is yes, I'll sign the bill. And if the answer is no, I'm going to veto the bill.And so far the Democrats in Congress have not drafted a bill I can sign. We've worked hard and in good faith with the Democrats to find a solution, but we are not going to put our national security at risk.
There's only one problem with Bush's statement: it isn't true.
A key Democrat in the negotiations, House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (D-MD), says that a deal had in fact been reached with McConnell, who has been busy lobbying Congress on a FISA update all week. "We had an agreement with DNI McConnell," Hoyer spokeswoman Stacey Bernards tells TPMmuckraker, "and then the White House quashed the agreement."
A bill that House Democrats put forward today does not require the National Security Agency to seek warrants for surveillance of persons inside the United States -- only that the Attorney General will issue "guidelines" as to how collecting the communications of U.S. persons should operate.
A spokesperson for McConnell, Ross Feinstein, says he is "not going to comment" on "what agreements have been or haven't been reached." He adds that McConnell has been "up front as to what the intelligence community needs, obviously what he proposed on April 13 and put in his statement at 11:35 last night," and that McConnell "continues to work closely with members on the Hill." We have a call out to the White House for comment.
Update: White House representatives haven't responded to our request for comment. We'll let you know what they say if and when they do.
Late Update: I'd be remiss not to mention that earlier this afternoon, Marty Lederman heard the same state of play between Bush, McConnell and the House Dems that this post confirmed.
Comments (246)
Moondancer wrote on August 3, 2007 5:21 PM:This FISA debacle gets more interesting by the second (literally). TPM: Way to go posting breaking news storys so quickly! Thanks!
Mark Richards wrote on August 3, 2007 5:24 PM:"A bill that House Democrats put forward today does not require the National Security Agency to seek warrants for surveillance of persons inside the United States -- only that the Attorney General will issue "guidelines" as to how collecting the communications of U.S. persons should operate."
There must be - seriously, folks - something wrong with this democratic leadership in the "upstairs" department. In short, Are they out of their fucking minds??
The people of America really need more direct democracy than what we have because clearly we're saner that the drooling imbisiles running the show.
After all the horrors of the past 3 months over the "justice" department, tell me it isn't so: "the Attorney General will issue "guidelines" as to how collecting the communications of U.S. persons should operate."
Another Friday, another total screwup.
bobh wrote on August 3, 2007 5:29 PM:he does not want a bill- he wants an issue.
something to wank about while the demsareatsummerrecess - idiots -so he can slip in a recess appointment and say see here dems bad me good.
Anonymous wrote on August 3, 2007 5:30 PM:fu preznit
"Mr. DNI?" I think "Admiral" might be a more polite reference.
The Bush Administration regularly referred to AG Ashcroft as "General" Aschcroft -- he was never in the military and the AG has never been referred to as "General."
What.Utter.Disrespect.
freepatriot wrote on August 3, 2007 5:31 PM:any democrat who votes for this bill needs to be cast out of the party
and that's all there is to say
P J Evans wrote on August 3, 2007 5:31 PM:Yet Another Bush Lie.
Becca wrote on August 3, 2007 5:32 PM:Anyone who watched the hissies the gopers threw last night and this mornng (David Drier and Tex Sessions were absolutely incoherent) knows that there's some shenanigans going on. Why did Drier make such an ass of himself, rambling inanely until Boehner came on the floor simply to agree with Hoyer?
I can't imagine the very glamorous and fabulous Dapper D taking a bullet for anyone else's benefit.
Justin wrote on August 3, 2007 5:34 PM:No warrants? I'm not sure but that sounds like it might not withstand constitutional challenge.
Anonymous wrote on August 3, 2007 5:35 PM:"A bill that House Democrats put forward today does not require the National Security Agency to seek warrants for surveillance of persons inside the United States -- only that the Attorney General will issue "guidelines" as to how collecting the communications of U.S. persons should operate."
WTF???
No Warrants? Period?
Guidlines from the A.G.?
What kind of compromise is that? Does FISA ever get involved at all?
Big Mitch wrote on August 3, 2007 5:37 PM:Referring to Gonzales as General Gonzo is completely appropriate, and considerably less offensive to my sensitivity than the other way loyal Bushies refer to him, viz., "Judge Gonzales"
bs23 wrote on August 3, 2007 5:39 PM:doesn't the oath of office require that the first question be: "Is this bill constitutional?"
just sayin'...
Ralph wrote on August 3, 2007 5:41 PM:I second what Mark Richards said. The Democratic leadership caved, and then to add insult to injury, Bush threw it back in their faces. In a way - it was justice.
DancingBear wrote on August 3, 2007 5:43 PM:Setting aside the contents of the deal that was made and reneged upon for a moment--when McConnell comes back to negotiate again, don't you just send him back and ask them to send somebody that actually has authority to make a deal?
Nobody wrote on August 3, 2007 5:49 PM:Democrat support of that version of the bill -- which they know the WH will not accept -- looks to me like calling the WH's bluff. Everybody everywhere will be asking the same question as folks here: "Geez, if -that- isn't enough for him, what -more- does he want? And why?"
And when they start following that, what the WH has been up to will become clear to everybody.
Or so I hope.
Bill Peterson wrote on August 3, 2007 5:54 PM:The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
-Case closed.-
BP
Meah Bottoms wrote on August 3, 2007 5:54 PM:Becca. Congressman Drier is usually painful to watch, arrogant, and in general, a real jerk. It is no surprise that he is the one who went bonkers. He drives me to turn the channel each time I see him on CSPAN going on about some problem he has with whatever. It is always something that he is complaining about. An Boehner? Just plain ugh!
mo2 wrote on August 3, 2007 5:56 PM:If Bush is involved, then he has done something illegal. The man does not "work" at anything other than making money for his cronies and covering his and his cronies' asses.
If Bush is involved then whatever the problem is - caving is NOT the best interest of the citizenry.
Austin Cooper wrote on August 3, 2007 5:58 PM:Oh, for Christ's sake -- and I almost mean that literally:
ITMFA
Anonymous wrote on August 3, 2007 6:01 PM:.
When w refuses to leave office in 2008 I will do my duty as American citizen.
Jim wrote on August 3, 2007 6:02 PM:This would really backfire on Bush if the Democrats spent all weekend going on t.v. telling their side of the story. Unfortunately, they're way too stupid/lazy to do that.
Jim wrote on August 3, 2007 6:02 PM:This would really backfire on Bush if the Democrats spent all weekend going on t.v. telling their side of the story. Unfortunately, they're way too stupid/lazy to do that.
jdw wrote on August 3, 2007 6:02 PM:The "White House" didn't nix the deal.
The Vice President did.
Does anyone honestly believe that the President has a clue about any of this? Or that anybody other than the OVP is running the show on Spying? The only person who could and would have nixed a deal by the DNI is the Veep.
John
SPENCER wrote on August 3, 2007 6:03 PM:Could Bush be using some kind of a specific terrorist threat for Aug-Sept as the excuse to force-feed this bill down the Dems' throats?
There's no threat to delay this, other than from Sanders and Feingold; I wonder if this is just fear-mongering again?
beowulf wrote on August 3, 2007 6:09 PM:McConnell was just thrown under the bus, Congress now knows that his word is no good. He should just resign already.
As for Gonzales, that's curious they call him Judge Gonzales. He's a former member of the Texas Supreme Court, wouldn't his title be Justice?
Austin Cooper wrote on August 3, 2007 6:10 PM:Incidentally, when I said " ITMFA ", the ' F ' should be taken as a *plural*.
These 'people' are interchangable. They all need to go -- to jail.
.
jdw wrote on August 3, 2007 6:11 PM:Obviously the Admin wants to protect yet another element of the program that the courts (FISA in this case) have determined to be Illegal.
Someone should ask Feingold *why* any of the members of Democtratic Leadership would be willing to go along when:
(a) more stuff is coming out about how illegal the program has beem
(b) the White House is threatening to veto every Democratic bill in sight
(c) the White House has yet to give an inch on Iraw
(d) the White House is continuing to have the Republican Leadership obstruct Democratic legislation
What is the incentive for the Dems to agree to something *now* for a Administration that's not only untrustworthy, but also is openly at war with the Democrats in Congress?
John
Jim wrote on August 3, 2007 6:11 PM:This is getting ridiculous, how many times will the Dems give into to these guys?
We've got a Federal Judge saying that the wiretap program is illegal and we're going to make it legal?
Man I must be running in the wrong crowd, oh pardon me.
Anonymous wrote on August 3, 2007 6:15 PM:@ beowulf
I think even the Bushies will concede there's no "Justice" in Gonzales.
jdw wrote on August 3, 2007 6:15 PM:We've got a Federal Judge saying that the wiretap program is illegal and we're going to make it legal?
---------------
That's what is mindnumbing about this.
The ruling was months again. The Admin buries it, and no doubt keep on doing what it illegal. Then they beg Congress to make it legal. And Congress decides to play ball.
John
Anonymous wrote on August 3, 2007 6:21 PM:There is great irony in of all Bush's unConstitutional efforts to expand eavesdropping and data mining. ALL of the information needed to prevent the 9-11 attacks was in the system, but the FBI and other agencies did no have the capacity to analyze it and share it. Rather than reduce competing and unintegrated information sources, Bush has exponentially increased the collection of data without adequately expanding the capacity to analyze and share it. It is all about power grabbing and securing information for political advantage. Scary!
budfox wrote on August 3, 2007 6:26 PM:In a sane world--Hoyer: "We have, in this WhiteHouse a stubborn, obstinate, and nearly incoherent approach to the FISA law, they do not have the security of the United States as there #1 prority, only the accumulation of power in the executive branch.
Being the representatives of the people we will not allow this charade to compromise our nation's security or the fundamental, inalienable right of all Americans."
Jane wrote on August 3, 2007 6:26 PM:Impeach Bush for violating the Fourth Amendment.
moondancer wrote on August 3, 2007 6:27 PM:moondancer@5:21
I dont know who or how but that was not my posting. I wasnt even online til well after 600PM EST.
Anonymous wrote on August 3, 2007 6:28 PM:it's obvious something is in the works for an attack on our soil when the politicoheads go on aug recess. the freak who said we should blow up mecca said a global economic crisis is on the horizon should we get attacked again. when this happens boosh can say the dems blocked this fisa bill and that's why boosh couldn't thwart the attack just to blame it all on the dems
kentuck wrote on August 3, 2007 6:28 PM:My question is "Why"? Why is the President so intent on getting his way on this bill - even to the point of over-riding his DNI?? Why would he want to put Alberto Gonzales in charge?
It seems that the Congress has given away too much already? In their rush to get to their vacations, their European trips in place, are they rushing to get out of town?
Mr Bush will most likely veto this deal that the Democrats passed today. He will threaten to keep them here for the August recess, if necessary, until he gets what he wants.
He has waited since January for just the right moment to pull this political ploy. He knows how much the Congressmen covet their vacations. He believes they will fold in order to get out of town. I should hope the Democrats would call his bluff.
I want to hear one Democratic leader stand up this bully. OK, Mr President, we have given you just what the DNI told us you needed. If we are attacked because of these political games, you will have no one to blame but yourself. The American people are watching closely.
Becca wrote on August 3, 2007 6:28 PM:Did Leahy ever get "briefed in" on the TSP as Specter did? I know he was offered.
ezsmirkzz wrote on August 3, 2007 6:29 PM:I don't believe he accepted. Why?
This program is just a CYA for what they have already been doing using Echelon, etc, by hiding NSC operations under the NSA umbrella. The fact that the Democrats signed off on warrantless surviellance in the US ought to be ringing bells in sentient beings heads.
The problem with the three letter boys and the pResident is in trying to prevent operations that have already occurred, from occurring again as they did previously. In short they are still fighting the last war, like Petraeus is in his. Scotland was a feint.
When all of this fails and AQ clobbers the "Homeland" yet again, then some of us will still be out here with under educated asses and observations saying I told you so, while the overclass and college boys figure out what went wrong with all of this crap under discussion here, mostly that those who rely on on electonic communications assume that other do as well. Sorry kids, AQ is the most unAmerican of people, slightly above and to the right of the current US government, which is the most unAmerican of governments, as per the legislation.
CathiefromCanada wrote on August 3, 2007 6:31 PM:Didn't we hear this tune in 2006 when habeus corpus disappeared?
db wrote on August 3, 2007 6:32 PM:Once again, the Democrats are responding knee-jerk to an artificial and spurious urgency, following a court ruling which the Bush administration finds problematic, so that on the basis of "protecting America" they are being stampeded into approving something which will turn out to be bad for the country.
Well, the dems sent our troops off to die for nothing with the iraq authorization resolution, and they did so because they were afraid that it might hurt their chances as candidates if they stood up to bush and called him on his BS (with the notable exception of Nancy Pelosi, who led a majority in the house to vote against it and abandon Gephart).
So it should not be surprising that they would flush the constitution and much else down the toilet over this fight.
And you know the bill will have a clause that gives the admin immunity for all of their past illegal spying on top of giving all authority to that perjurer and criminal the Attorney General of the United States.
db wrote on August 3, 2007 6:35 PM:Opps...Pelosi led a majority of dems in the house to vote against the Iraq war authorization, I meant. She obviously did not lead a majority of the house to do so.
Ben Dover wrote on August 3, 2007 6:38 PM:There's only one problem with Bush's statement: it isn't true.
WHAT?? The chimp lied about something? Say its not so!! Afterall he's a "christian" and a compassionate conservative who wants to "fight em over there so we don't have to fight em here" while he "smokes em out and gits em."
I cant believe Chimpy lied.
steve wrote on August 3, 2007 6:38 PM:Since a FISA court apparently ruled what the administration had been doing was not legal why isn't anyone discussing the criminal consequences of violating FISA for the prior periods in question. Now the Dems are in effect making this illegal activity legal probably even going so far as to back date the enactment date. I've given up on my party and my government - it's all so hopeless.
Ben Dover wrote on August 3, 2007 6:39 PM:There's only one problem with Bush's statement: it isn't true.
WHAT?? The chimp lied about something? Say its not so!! Afterall he's a "christian" and a compassionate conservative who wants to "fight em over there so we don't have to fight em here" while he "smokes em out and gits em."
I cant believe Chimpy lied.
johnnydoughey wrote on August 3, 2007 6:40 PM:These guys are not wrangling over al-Qaeda, the IRA, or any other terrorists group. What they are doing is negotiating their own place in the now ongoing coup here in the good old USA. You have to be blind to see the number of new gun carrying guys out there. None of these guys are doing anything to protect the citizens of this country. They have been and are being hired to protect those in charge from folks who will no longer tolerate the disintigration of our democracy. These new, secret regulations are for spying on anyone in the United States of America who my possibly have a difference of opinion with those in charge.
We have long ago separated the rules for those in charge. We just witnessed this with the announcement by Senator Craig. We see it constantly in the House and Senate where deference is made for "those who have given their lives for public service" by allowing them to continue extorting money from those who place them in office and to continue to blatently disregard what they were elected for.
The Vietnam War began because of the Gulf of Tonkin incident, which has been proven to be false. Who was punished for this. The innocent.
The 1st Gulf War occurred and was okayed by Congress when a couple of women stood up and related the attrocities they witnessed in Kuwait, although they hadn't even been there at the time. Who paid the consequences for this. Lots of innocent folks...
We attacked Iraq due to absolutely positive intelligence reports which are now known to be totally false. Guess who's paying the price.
I can hardly wait to see who we can destroy next. I have an idea though, that because "We the People" has been subverted by the important guys in Washington to "We the stupid peons who don't know what's best for ouselves so we need someone to make these important decisions for us", and because there has been a tremendous buildup of troops between Canada and Mexico, that there is a good chance the next target for our officials to attack will be... us.
Their excuse will be "It's the only way to protect our way of life".
I
Steve wrote on August 3, 2007 6:43 PM:I hope everyone is calling/emailing their Congressman and Nancy Pelosi urging them to not agree to an enhanced FISA law.
pghphillip wrote on August 3, 2007 6:45 PM:I can understand Ms. Pellosi's lack of desire to initiate impeachment proceedings . I don't agree, but I can understand her point. I DO NOT UNDERSTAND HER WILLINGNESS TO GO ALONG WITH THIS CHANGE TO FISA. The same for all the Democrats. Are they not listening to the American people? Have they not read the constitution? Something is seriously broken inside the Beltway.
Harvey Crap wrote on August 3, 2007 6:48 PM:I think the key thing is this: the fix is in. We can only forever guess; we never, ever know anything for sure; but at a certain level - specifically, at a certain height - Dems and Cons and Bushies commingle indistinguishably, they work to advance mysterious agendas that operate on the same core principle as the realm of death - or, no emanation of information, period. Just guesses upon guesses, forever and ever...
This is how conspiracies are hatched, cared for and fed. This is why people start thinking crazy thoughts - and start thinking those crazy thoughts aren't so crazy. Are there open WH threats going on, against Cons and Dems? Do certain people know certain things that are so bone-chilling and ugly that ambling ashen-faced through Congress' halls is the sum total of what they're capable of? Does "We, the People" sputter off into inoperability once you become a senator or congressperson? Is there, in a nutshell, no liberty or freedom in America beyond farcical facades and dreams and ideals? Did Bush start this, or is he merely the latest (and most virulent) version?
I ask these questions because I've never seen anything like the Bushies, and I've often thought that Congress, having also never seen anything like the Bushies (read: a cult of personality from hell), can't help but be ripe-ass rubes open to endless neoconnish sucker punches. Or: if an open tyranny has engines that run exclusively on law-flouting jet fuel, could they succeed because nobody saw it coming? Could they succeed because they have zero scruples, pick their teeth with decorum's bones and spit fire into judicious eyes?
I think I've finally lost my mind because of these bastards. Because, by fuck, they are bastards.
friday wrote on August 3, 2007 6:48 PM:Questions for Anon/Deepmodem:
1. Why isn’t the third-party IP collection of EOP, DOJ, WH, and DOD data illegal?
2. Is it possible that Congress is the “third-party”?
3. Is the “third-party” unable to go public without a request or demand from Congress?
Clarification:
Is it possible that IP data collection works like this? IP address A represents legal counsel. IP address B represents AG. IP addresses C-L represent DOJ, DOD, WH staff.
A damaging story about illegal activity within admin breaks at 10:30 am. IP activity between IP addresses A & B picks up at 10:35. At 10:40, IP activity between IP addresses B and C-L increases and holes in data sets appear or IP activity related to destroying data is logged at 10:45 am.
Is this how IP data capturing could be problematic for admin and counsel even though details of conversations have not been captured?
Jerry wrote on August 3, 2007 6:48 PM:This is pathetic. I despise Bush.
Harvey Crap wrote on August 3, 2007 6:49 PM:He's just a man who wants everything his way or no way.
I'd encourage the Democrats to give Bush a collective finger. If the DNI was satisfied, then what the hell is Bush up to?
Will anyone else get this story? Will it show up on the evening news?
Brother. I'm so sick of this kind of savage partisanship. And phoniness.
I think the key thing is this: the fix is in. We can only forever guess; we never, ever know anything for sure; but at a certain level - specifically, at a certain height - Dems and Cons and Bushies commingle indistinguishably, they work to advance mysterious agendas that operate on the same core principle as the realm of death - or, no emanation of information, period. Just guesses upon guesses, forever and ever...
This is how conspiracies are hatched, cared for and fed. This is why people start thinking crazy thoughts - and start thinking those crazy thoughts aren't so crazy. Are there open WH threats going on, against Cons and Dems? Do certain people know certain things that are so bone-chilling and ugly that ambling ashen-faced through Congress' halls is the sum total of what they're capable of? Does "We, the People" sputter off into inoperability once you become a senator or congressperson? Is there, in a nutshell, no liberty or freedom in America beyond farcical facades and dreams and ideals? Did Bush start this, or is he merely the latest (and most virulent) version?
I ask these questions because I've never seen anything like the Bushies, and I've often thought that Congress, having also never seen anything like the Bushies (read: a cult of personality from hell), can't help but be ripe-ass rubes open to endless neoconnish sucker punches. Or: if an open tyranny has engines that run exclusively on law-flouting jet fuel, could they succeed because nobody saw it coming? Could they succeed because they have zero scruples, pick their teeth with decorum's bones and spit fire into judicious eyes?
I think I've finally lost my mind because of these bastards. Because, by fuck, they are bastards.
Chris wrote on August 3, 2007 6:50 PM:Does anyone know if this means the program is stopped, in light of the recent secret court ruling?
If so, now is Bush's chance to blame the dems should something big happen, say over the summer recess.
Becca wrote on August 3, 2007 6:55 PM:Boehner just stabbed Hoyer in the back and Steny's pissed!
A Georgia Democrat wrote on August 3, 2007 6:58 PM:The only way for Democrats to survive the foolishness forced on them by the Republicans is to involve 'we, the people' by defunding everything and shutting down whatever they can. We, the people need to wake up, figure out that our country and our future are being hijacked by that corrupt crowd around Bush, turn off the TV and hit the street. Our money is paying for this nonsense, we and our elected representatives need to learn to say NO. We can stonewall, be forgetful and wear a shit-eating grin while lying as well as they can.
Nana wrote on August 3, 2007 7:04 PM:Maybe the chickens have outsmarted the fox this time. If this bill ever became a law and the AG
interested litigant wrote on August 3, 2007 7:06 PM:of the U.S had to enforce it, no less add guidelines to the Constitution no court in the
land could ever uphold it.Everything would be on the table and open. What worries me is why did he
make a big deal of this issue at this time? Maybe they knew he could never sign it and were telling
him put up or shut up as he is so fond of telling them.But what was his angle in this.I would think the less made of this the better but he always has an angle.
Spencer you did it again. The statement of the President IS true. It hasn't happened yet. You are mixing two topics in one attack. You have to stop that. It is what a 2 year old would do without considering context. Your argument did well without that.
starwheel wrote on August 3, 2007 7:06 PM:Is enraging as this President is, I am pretty damned outraged that Democrats agreed to "make a deal" with the administration in respect to eroding our civil liberties.
We already know Bush's intentions and attitude toward to Constitution. Why the hell are the Democrats enabling this alcoholic?
rockyroad wrote on August 3, 2007 7:08 PM:A word of caution to Congress:
Do not approve expansion of FISA legislation.
Nothing this admisistration or Juctice Department has done should instill any confidence.
Overreaching,polarization and politicization have been the names of the game. This is not a joke. It is not a political game.
To date, we have not seen an instance in which we afforded this administration the benefit of the doubt in which this administration did not use that benefit as an opportunity to expand and abuse its power. STOP.
Neither Bush, Gonzalez nor Cheney can be trusted with the fragile, yet provacitive power of the people of the United States. . . a democracy . . . a proud democracy, not the dynastic, totalitarian regime that we are destined to become if our leaders don't show, not a little, but a huge amount of backbone. Where are our democratic (not in the sense of a party, but in a sense of democracy)?
People are suffering on the Gulf Coast, in Iraq and here in America.
skeletonman wrote on August 3, 2007 7:12 PM:Here's what we are all forgetting:
that little executive order that makes the pResident in charge of the whole fucking government if there is a sentinal event (doesn't say what kind of event, just hands the pRes the power to define it by fait accompli).
These people need to be stopped. Now.
Cheney and his pet monkey are a far greater danger to the nation than terrorist.
The remedy is impeachment.
Do it for yourself. Do it for your friends. Do it for posterity.
The Impartial wrote on August 3, 2007 7:12 PM:If I read it right, with this bill FISA is gone and Gonzo will run the show?
DeeDee wrote on August 3, 2007 7:12 PM:I agree with all the above comments, what really is going on. Why are the Democrats caving to this group. Look what they already have done. The mindless War in Iraq, illegal wiretapping, torture, prison camps all over the world, the dissembling of our God given civil liberties, and now legally allowing these monsters to listen to our phone calls, read our e-mails. To top it all off Gonzales is in charge. Talking about putting the fox in the hen coop. Don't you love it.
Orange wrote on August 3, 2007 7:15 PM:"A bill that House Democrats put forward today does not require the National Security Agency to seek warrants for surveillance of persons inside the United States -- only that the Attorney General will issue "guidelines" as to how collecting the communications of U.S. persons should operate."
This is unfortunately phrased--it makes it sound like the government can start eavesdropping on people in the US without ever obtaining a warrant. If I understand what is said after following the link, it says that if a FISA-warranted wiretap ends up snaring someone in the US, no additional warrant needs to be obtained. One can argue about whether this is okay, but is at least not as egregiously unconscionable as is apparently stated.
fairyduster wrote on August 3, 2007 7:17 PM:I DO NOT UNDERSTAND ANY DEMS WILLINGNESS TO GO ALONG WITH THIS CHANGE TO FISA.
Unless bushco has been blackmailing them all along.
Damian wrote on August 3, 2007 7:18 PM:This bs is typical of the chimp. Scare tactics and a manufactured "crisis". See another pattern? "I listen to the [agency heads] on the ground." In reality, when he doesn't hear the answer he expects, then he overrules and replaces them.
If it were me, I'd publically hold firm on the Gonzo issue. The disagreement over trusting Gonzo with any meaninful oversight of something otherwise secret is precisely why he needs to be fired/resign/impeached. Stated differently using their talking point, Gonzo is a threat to our Nation's vital security!
Linda wrote on August 3, 2007 7:20 PM:To Harvey Crap, What you said, word for word.
CJR wrote on August 3, 2007 7:21 PM:Maybe there's another one of those "Bin Laden Determined To Fuck You Up" memos out there and Cheney is gaming this to set the Democrats up for blame once it happens.
Really, this is where you get with this shit. You get into real strange territory of thinking.
There's lots of talk about Bushco's ability to prevent another 9/11 sort of incident. There's not enough talk -- now that THEY ARE NEARING THE END OF THEIR LEGAL RUN IN OFFICE -- about their willingness to prevent an attack.
skeletonman wrote on August 3, 2007 7:21 PM:Don't forget sHrIMpSELF's little executive order of a couple of months past, the one in which he gets to proclaim himself Grand Imperial Poobah in the case of a sentinal event (shit, the order doesn't even specify what kind of event it has to be - just a 'threat' as defined by Chimpy - or, actually, Darth Cheney).
Hell, a big sell off on Wall Street could allow this whoreson to declare himself president for life; these people have put the machinations in place for their coup.
Impeach them now, while we still have a chance.
Impeach early, and impeach often.
improper wrote on August 3, 2007 7:21 PM:Fuck satisfying the military as it relates to domestic surveillance (even if one party is out of the country) and whether such surveillance meets Constitutional muster. Congress does not answer to unelected nimrods like McConnell, Congress, limited by the text of the Constitution, answers to the people. Minions like McConnell await Congress' laws.
skeletonman wrote on August 3, 2007 7:22 PM:Don't forget sHrIMpSELF's little executive order of a couple of months past, the one in which he gets to proclaim himself Grand Imperial Poobah in the case of a sentinal event (shit, the order doesn't even specify what kind of event it has to be - just a 'threat' as defined by Chimpy - or, actually, Darth Cheney).
Hell, a big sell off on Wall Street could allow this whoreson to declare himself president for life; these people have put the machinations in place for their coup.
Impeach them now, while we still have a chance.
Impeach early, and impeach often.
johnnydoughey wrote on August 3, 2007 7:22 PM:Re: "If so, now is Bush's chance to blame the dems should something big happen, say over the summer recess"
Bush can blame the Dems if and when ANY attack is deemed probable or in fact occurs.
"Folks, this travesty occurred because the Democrats have consistently fought this administration everytime we attempted to secure this nation. See, these are the results. We cannot allow this to happen again! Congress needs to okay ALL the protective measures I have been attemping to get passed immediately so this does not occur again!"
Of course, everything he blames the Democrats for will be top secret national security documents. It'll probably work, too...
skeletonman wrote on August 3, 2007 7:23 PM:Don't forget sHrIMpSELF's little executive order of a couple of months past, the one in which he gets to proclaim himself Grand Imperial Poobah in the case of a sentinal event (shit, the order doesn't even specify what kind of event it has to be - just a 'threat' as defined by Chimpy - or, actually, Darth Cheney).
Hell, a big sell off on Wall Street could allow this whoreson to declare himself president for life; these people have put the machinations in place for their coup.
Impeach them now, while we still have a chance.
Impeach early, and impeach often.
skeletonman wrote on August 3, 2007 7:23 PM:Don't forget sHrIMpSELF's little executive order of a couple of months past, the one in which he gets to proclaim himself Grand Imperial Poobah in the case of a sentinal event (shit, the order doesn't even specify what kind of event it has to be - just a 'threat' as defined by Chimpy - or, actually, Darth Cheney).
Hell, a big sell off on Wall Street could allow this whoreson to declare himself president for life; these people have put the machinations in place for their coup.
Impeach them now, while we still have a chance.
Impeach early, and impeach often.
skeletonman wrote on August 3, 2007 7:24 PM:Don't forget sHrIMpSELF's little executive order of a couple of months past, the one in which he gets to proclaim himself Grand Imperial Poobah in the case of a sentinal event (shit, the order doesn't even specify what kind of event it has to be - just a 'threat' as defined by Chimpy - or, actually, Darth Cheney).
Hell, a big sell off on Wall Street could allow this whoreson to declare himself president for life; these people have put the machinations in place for their coup.
Impeach them now, while we still have a chance.
Impeach early, and impeach often.
skeletonman wrote on August 3, 2007 7:25 PM:Don't forget sHrIMpSELF's little executive order of a couple of months past, the one in which he gets to proclaim himself Grand Imperial Poobah in the case of a sentinal event (shit, the order doesn't even specify what kind of event it has to be - just a 'threat' as defined by Chimpy - or, actually, Darth Cheney).
Hell, a big sell off on Wall Street could allow this whoreson to declare himself president for life; these people have put the machinations in place for their coup.
Impeach them now, while we still have a chance.
Impeach early, and impeach often.
Andrew wrote on August 3, 2007 7:27 PM:Better yet....Let the two parties fight it out and let's get a third party in this country going giving people a real choice for a change. How about Mr. Gore? Just tag Obama as your running mate an that's a slam dunk!
kentuck wrote on August 3, 2007 7:27 PM:Listen up Democrats! If you go along with this piece of crap, you are taking a big gamble in the next election. We did not vote for you the last time to continue this BS. I don't give a big dang doodle if you have to stay in Washington for the entire month of August. You just gave yourself a big raise - maybe you should stay? You are about to lose your majority. Either straighten up or we will find someone that will. We are tired of it! You have been warned. If you are too stupid to see what is going on, you don't deserve to be in Washington anyway.
On the Clock wrote on August 3, 2007 7:31 PM:It is as I suspected -- Adm. McConnell hates Amurca.
Any Democrats who abet this WH effort to make Americans forget Bush's streak of misbegotten Augusts should consider themselves subject to well-funded primary challenges.
cwnidog wrote on August 3, 2007 7:34 PM:OK, just where in the Constitution does it allow Commander Codpiece, his SuperSpook, and Congress to negotiate just which 4th amendment guarantees will and will not be observed?
fairyduster wrote on August 3, 2007 7:36 PM:
skeletonman wrote on August 3, 2007 7:37 PM:Has everyone CALLED their Senators and Rep about this abomination?
I did. Short and sweet with a couple "thank yous" thrown in.
Keep the pressure on them.
sorry about the multiples, my internet sucks
party-of-one wrote on August 3, 2007 7:38 PM:If Director of National Intelligence Mike McConnell had one ounce of self respect he would RESIGN in protest. He would then be a national hero and could make a fortune off of a tell-all book, working title: "George Bush's Lack of Intelligence."
P O'Neill wrote on August 3, 2007 7:40 PM:White House says it's not true
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/08/20070803-19.html
Statement by Deputy Press Secretary Tony Fratto
RSS Feed White House News
"This afternoon on the House floor, Rep. Alcee Hastings asserted that last night the Director of National Intelligence had accepted a House Democratic proposal on FISA modernization but the White House made him turn it down. That is flatly untrue. The DNI reviewed the legislation himself and determined that it would not provide the tools he needs to protect the country, and therefore he would not be able to look the President in the eye and say that the legislation should be signed. The Administration is working in good faith with the Congress to get this critical national security legislation passed before they depart for the rest of August."
# # #
PFT wrote on August 3, 2007 7:41 PM:I think this is the finally straw for me. We may be a democracy in name only at this point. The Democrats and Republicans at a high level at least are working together to serve their corporate masters and the MIC, and not the people who have elected them. Another name for that is fascism. Sinclair Lewis in his book "It Can't Happen Here" said that if fascism came to America, it would be "wrapped in a flag, carrying a cross". He was right.
Fozzetti wrote on August 3, 2007 7:46 PM:Cheney wants the FISA bill to be retroactive, so he and the Pres won't go to jail for breaking the Law.
Doodlin wrote on August 3, 2007 7:52 PM:So they're going to grandfather in the crime. Is the mood of the country so crazed that impeachment is not considered a viable option?
Yankee Connecticut Bush wrote on August 3, 2007 7:55 PM:Cokehead said "Mr. DNI?" What is he, f-cking five years old?
Anonymous wrote on August 3, 2007 7:57 PM:"The Administration is working in good faith ..."
Q: How many times today has the WH framed the issue this way?
Saying, in this case repeatedly that the WH is working "in good faith" is the same as when someone says "in all honesty". It's the buzzer going off warning everything to follow is bullsh!t.
PQC wrote on August 3, 2007 7:58 PM:This might be the only thing I respect Bush for. Any agreement that bypasses a warrant is poisonous. He blocked another Democratic cave in.
fairyduster wrote on August 3, 2007 7:58 PM:The only way our country could be overthrown is internally. The fascist authoritarian Republicans are doing that.
I can say treason. How about you?
Cas wrote on August 3, 2007 8:05 PM:Here's how to tell Bush is lying: His lips are moving.
Allen wrote on August 3, 2007 8:05 PM:Sounds to me that Dick didn't approve... and everyone knows that Dick is in control... damn the DNI....
bejammin075 wrote on August 3, 2007 8:07 PM:The name of the bill should be called:
The Hillary/Obama/Edwards/Richardson Surveillance Act of 2007.
With that much unchecked power to spy, how much you want to bet they'd use the power to spy on political opponents?
EH wrote on August 3, 2007 8:13 PM:In putting the Attorney General in charge of FISA, Bush is not signaling that he wants Gonzales to be the man in charge. This is probably an indicator that Bush has already set up Gonzales' departure and is strategizing toward the NEXT AG.
Schroeder wrote on August 3, 2007 8:14 PM:Of course the FISA is suddenly an issue because GWB just found out (Via judicial ruling) that what he and Cheney have been doing is illegal. Maybe they're a little worried. Personally, I think the way FISA worked under Clinton (and they've extended the time to get a warrant from 48 to 72 hours I think) is just adequate. I say, give him the bill and plan to hang out in DC during August. Might be good to stand your ground. Realize that it will also force the 'other side of the isle' to stay in Washington...could be a bonding experience. Don't give Bush one more thing!
ken wrote on August 3, 2007 8:14 PM:Until this administration is out of office by impeachment or otherwise. The democratic leadership should give them nothing they want or need. Bush is a bungling babbling buffoon and will take anything given and twist it to his way and then use it to screw the people.
meh wrote on August 3, 2007 8:16 PM:Where is Mr. Blank these days? The Democratic congress is about to legalize warrantless intrusions and do it RETROACTIVELY. If Mr. Blank has anything else to say, he'd better say it now because time's almost up.
Prediction: Mr. Blank's got nothing of substance and now we're all f*cked because the Democrats are selling us down the river.
johnnydrama wrote on August 3, 2007 8:26 PM:Ok, stupid reference, but in Die Hard 2, there's a scene where the team of soldiers turned bad guys are headed to rendevous with the Colonel played by William Sadler.
When they figure out that one of the soldiers with them was not "with them", they cut his throat.
That's what this is like. McConnell, Gates and a few others are on their side, but not "with them", meaning not involved in all the criminal activity. McConnell foolishly thinks that he's there to negotiate something to make America safer, and doesn't know that he's not part of the team, and their real goals.
Mr.Boots wrote on August 3, 2007 8:26 PM:Fine, tell Gonzo to turn in his resignation, find an AG that is acceptable, and maybe we can make a deal.
socks wrote on August 3, 2007 8:41 PM:These stooges think they have the right to missconstrew anything. If they legislate it, no matter what the Constitution says, it's A-OK.----------- Bugger that.
What kind of principles do they live by? Very low it seems to me. The Constitution was supposed to be the guideline. How can they legislate against it without any reference to what the people want. Call for a referendom before you give the house away, you fools.
Scare em with a bit of terrorism and they seem to be willing to disolve our rights.
And hardly anyone believes for one minute this has jack-#hit to do with terrorism. This is Bush setting up the Nixon spying on political opponents. If they were so good at spying on the crack pots who are terrorists, they would have them rounded up by now.
This is to data mine on Americans so they can make their caging lists and know what the Democratic Congress is doing the second it happenes.
And the Democratic leaders are falling for this! stupid fools, even more than that but any curse one can say is just water off their backs--------they seem impervious to Citizen's demands.
homas wrote on August 3, 2007 8:43 PM:F*UCK BUSH !!! And ANY Demos who crater to his sad, silly "demands".
TheraP wrote on August 3, 2007 8:45 PM:.
speechless
.
sc: grip... wish we had one
kentuck wrote on August 3, 2007 8:47 PM:Disclaimer: I am not a psychologist.
However, I think this whole sceme is part and parcel of the make-up of George W Bush. To this day, he cannot admit he made a mistake with anything he has ever done. That is why he is clinging to some sort of "victory" in Iraq, after his disastrous invasion.
He thinks in a similar way about the FISA laws. He knows what he did was illegal but he believes that, in time, history will show that what he did illegally will prove to have protected America from the terrorists and he will be forgiven for breaking the FISA laws.
Bottom line: The President is in deep denial. He is in denial about the mess he has created in Iraq. And he is in denial about the laws that he broke, in his search for the terrorists. He is a mentally disturbed person.
jeffgee wrote on August 3, 2007 8:48 PM:Bush Knows Best because God speaks directly to his gut. Advisors are merely window dressing.
friday wrote on August 3, 2007 8:54 PM:I think what Anon/Deepmodem is saying can be summarized like this:
The DOJ, WH, OVP, Legal Counsel, and/through RNC have been using the TSP as a heads-up on investigations regarding attorney firings, Libby, torture, renditions etc and for political purposes. The link to the state AG case involving verizon and the DOJ is an example of the “third-party” IP data capture and how this method could be used over and over again to compile evidence.
The references to war crimes is the motive. The third-party data capture doesn’t hold evidence of war crimes. The evidence of war crimes is all out in the open, torture, rendition, black sites etc. The fear of war crimes charges are just the motive to conceal the use of TSA, skirting FISA, for political purposes and to block investigations into war crimes.
Cheney refusing to comply with the Executive Order regarding oversight of classified material handling seems separate. But the reason Cheney refused to comply was because, according to Anon, it is illegal to classify material to cover up illegal activities. By the way, did this get dropped? Any work being done legally to force Cheney to comply with the classified material EO?
Johnsnottoodistracted wrote on August 3, 2007 8:55 PM:No joke.Don't take vacation this year.Do the job the people really need done now.Stay there and police that area.
gwilson wrote on August 3, 2007 9:00 PM:Look at what happens while you are there.
No one can afford to let anything happen that may be preventable.
Nothing changes if nothing changes.
Start to do what the people are begging you to do.
Stop this insanity.
And stop it with the cute words.Words only prolong this sceptic braindead singalong.
It's already at the bottom.
Some one has to show the way.
Can we have leadership??
Someone who represents the people?
This is simply unacceptable that this Democratic controlled Congress and Senate are willing to relinquish all civil rights for all Americans based on FEAR. The elected officials, many whom I voted for, are seemingly Cowards. The Democrats should realize that the American people elected them to think independently and not to RUBBER stamp every SECURTY-related FEAR request of the Bush administration. The irreversible damage to our civil liberties is being committed by the Democrats and Republicans during their 72 hour scrimmage to ensure that their vacation is not interrupted. I am particularly disgusted at the Democrats bill, which “does not require the National Security Agency to seek warrants for surveillance of persons inside the United States -- only that the Attorney General will issue "guidelines" as to how collecting the communications of U.S. persons should operate.” A major decision such as this should be thoroughly debated during weeks of deliberation between the parties, with the priority to protect the Constitutional liberties of all Americans.
Largo wrote on August 3, 2007 9:03 PM:It doesn't contain language that exonerates the liar in chief for past illegal surveillance. That's what the all the asshole's huffing and puffing is about. He broke the law, and he wants his diapers cleaned retroactively.
Robt wrote on August 3, 2007 9:10 PM:What FISA provided was a paper trail. You know for posterity. In case of wrong doings(accountability). By our Governmant, not just the neo con ran Government.
We know they spied on quakers, war protesters, and suspected anti war/anti Bush activists.
They are profiling us like J Edger Hoover did.
there are reports of people going on vacation to Canada, are being rejected their entrance into the country because they were busted with pot 35 years ago, or arrested for being in a protest during Vietnam years.
How can this be? Because part of our terrorist defense is sharing info with other countries. And that info is that of Americas's own citizens. The profiles on us are being given to other countries.
These other countries have laws that look at you differently than our laws.
Would it be that the Dems are being reassured that no political eaves dropping on political adversaries will occur. Therefore it is OK to spy and collect info on us to create profiles that can be used against you for anything and be given to other countries to be used against you. For something minute as a protest 35 yrs ago?
jack jett wrote on August 3, 2007 9:10 PM:Dems...don't buckle this time.
All you have to do is stick your guns ONE time.
Let him know America is the boss.
jack jett
claude westervelt wrote on August 3, 2007 9:20 PM:www.jackejett.com
To all those who are calling for impeachment YOU CAN NOT IMPEACH A DICTATOR.
Xenos wrote on August 3, 2007 9:27 PM:congress makes the bills that become law not the person sitting in the White House. congress has the power to reverse any thing that comes out of the White House. They are not going to do this . Perhaps we should remember what Franklin D. Roosevelt said in his 1946 State of the Union address: " Nothing in politics is accidental. Everything is well planned."These words came from the mouth of the only man ever to hold the White House for four terms. Fact finder. TRUTH LIVES
"The Bush Administration regularly referred to AG Ashcroft as "General" Aschcroft -- he was never in the military and the AG has never been referred to as "General."
SteveW wrote on August 3, 2007 9:27 PM:The plural of 'Attorney General' is 'Attorneys General' - general here is the adjective, not the noun (title). Its use here indicates that we are talking about the one attorney who represents the country and the people in general, not some sort of quasi-military rank, like you have with the Surgeon General, who actually gets a nifty uniform to wear.
Okay, I'm disgusted with the Dems...everyone agree they are a bunch of useless clowns?
Why on Earth would they agree to allow this president, this administration, and this Attorney General to have even greater latitude in shredding our civil rights under the Constitution? What the hell is going on? Is this 2007 or the end of 2001 post 911? You'd think Bush was a wildly popular president and Dems weren't in controll of Congress with the way these chumps are rolling over for Bush...at virtually every front when it pertains to this war.
We need new Dem leadership sooner than later. These people are the biggest bunch of pussies in the world. As someone said the other day, we should all send them some ping pong balls, considering none of them actually have a set themselves.
Xenos wrote on August 3, 2007 9:35 PM:"Why on Earth would they agree to allow this president, this administration, and this Attorney General to have even greater latitude in shredding our civil rights under the Constitution? What the hell is going on?"
In my oursuit of greater and more vivid wishful thinking, I wonder if they got an inside tip the Bush would nix his own bill in a spectacular and transparant bit of stupid cynicism. Yeah, they meant to do it!
I also like the idea of Bush recalling Congress from vacation, just to have them promptly begin impeachment. Still, this is Bush's game: we are in a crisis after crisis because he wants it that way.
Quackers wrote on August 3, 2007 9:36 PM:Bush squashed the deal? Nope, that's the handiwork of Cheney....anyone up for bets on it?
CL-Oregon Girl wrote on August 3, 2007 9:45 PM:The Dems should stay on TV all weekend long and educate the public about spying, FISA, the illegality of what the WH has been doing in terms of spying without warrants and explain about the GWB double cross.
They should not sit tight, they should use this as an opportunity to hammer the WH hard. Or this is what we wish for.
I am so frustrated that they can get any momentum -- GW, Shooter and GONZO all have to go.
Richard A. Caplan wrote on August 3, 2007 9:52 PM:I agree with those who recognize that the Veep is the guy in the other room making the decision. He probably never authorized Bush to give the NIA authority to commit the White House.
I suspect that Dick Cheney is holding out for blanket immunity from future prosecutions for past illegal activity. Bush doesn't have the foresight to recognize he has criminal exposure once out of office. Cheney does.
Rebel Yell wrote on August 3, 2007 10:01 PM:Okay okay! Bush is a liar- he's a fucking liar! Ya happy now?
ByeBye AmericanPie wrote on August 3, 2007 10:19 PM:This wiretapping ability that congress intends to ram down our throats shows such contempt for the United States Constitution. It is a direct attack on the principles of a free spciety. It is the final straw breaking the back of American liberty. This is treason committed by those sworn by legal and binding oath to preserve and protect the same Constitution they are wiping their feet on. Whats next King George?
I A C K wrote on August 3, 2007 10:20 PM:TODAY CONGRESS VOTED ON A FARM SPENDING BILL.
'sconset wrote on August 3, 2007 10:27 PM:THE REPUBLICANS CLAIM IT WAS AN IMMIGRATION GIVEAWAY.
IF IMMIGRATION IS SO IMPORTANT, WHY MAKE IT AN AMENDMEN TO A BILL THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IMMIGRATION????
The bill passed in the Senate but it was Bond's bill. As far as I am concerned, they should have told the White House that they will take it up in the fall when they get back from recess. The White House had 7 months to get this through--this is a very complex bill with significant ramifications to all of us and you don't do a bill like this half-assed.
Our personal freedoms and liberties are more important and we the people deserve better from our legislators.
SteveW wrote on August 3, 2007 10:28 PM:Well, as I said, I don't know what's going on here, though the Dems are stupid to even play along. Why stay in D.C. over the weekend, prior to recess, in an effort to rush such an important change in law, just because Bush/Cheney wants them to? Isn't that what happened with the Patriot Act...and we all have seen how well that has worked against our civil liberties. In addition, the notion of a secret court/FISA is already a violation of the fourth amendment, and other presidents haven't had such issues with the FISA court until president Cheney, yes Cheney grabbed power.
Lastly, I agree with the poster above who said the Dems need to explain this in simple terms to the American people starting this weekend and through their recess. They need to tell the American public what their rights are under the Constitution, how FISA has been used over the years, and how Bush has already broken laws and would like to radically change our legal system to cover the laws they've already broken. Ask Americans if they TRUST Cheney/Bush/and Gonzo to protect our rights under the Constitution? The Dems should have pushed back on this from he start, focusing on the bit about Fredo Gonzo having oversight (ha, ha, ha) for this program. Had they done that, Bush would have been forced to defend Gonzo...on what grounds, again? Even Republicans don't trust Fredo.
I'm sure Bush's proposal to have Gonzo oversee this was simply used as a negotiation chip they were prepared to give away in negotiation for this expanded power...though maybe they were just bold enough to really expect Congress to give Fredo this new power.
Facadewriter wrote on August 3, 2007 10:35 PM:The thought of trusting anything to, or anybody in, this Justice Department is just absurd. The only thing that saves the Dems is that we all know the GOP members are dumber than they are. They showed us that again and again last night and again today. They seem to think that every little problem is solved by a non-debatable motion to adjourn. It only buys them a 15 minute roll call, but then they do it again. Dunces!
culpeperson wrote on August 3, 2007 10:42 PM:"A bill that House Democrats put forward today does not require the National Security Agency to seek warrants for surveillance of persons inside the United States -- only that the Attorney General will issue "guidelines" as to how collecting the communications of U.S. persons should operate."
Shame on the Democrats. Americans elected Democrats to stand up to the nut cases in the Bush administration and the Democrats cave all over the place. The Senators have been in office to long and are just windbags.
They allowed Bush to go to war in Iraq and many didn't even read the intelligence reports themselves.
They allowed the wireless surveillance program and many other data mining programs and were so disinterested that many of the leadership said nothing. No house or senate leaders protested.
Democrats have let the White House thumb their noses at the congress and use George Orwell type tactics where black is white, up is down and Fox News spews out lies wrapped in "Fair and balanced."
TheraP wrote on August 3, 2007 10:43 PM:Friday - @6:48 and 8:54
Can you please be more specific?
I see your questions. I see your answers. And I sort of get a bit of the gist. But I'm not sure I really understand what you're trying to say.
Please, if you're still paying attention here on this thread, could you give me a bit more information?
A. I think you're suggesting (questioning?)that what's being captured is not specific conversations but bursts of activity, bursts of phone calls or emails - particularly at times when the administration is under fire. And that you can track how a conspiracy is occurring through those bursts and how they cluster in terms of who's in the loop?
B. Your summary about what Anon/Deepmodem is saying - that's where I'm confused. What is this TSP heads-up you're referring to? Can you give a specific crisis, as an example? And your reference to Verizon info? That's how it's captured? That's an example of the 3rd party data capture? And that's been referred to in Anon's posts - something recent, info in the public domain I seem to recall?
C. War crimes as the motive? Not sure what you mean by motive. You say "motive to conceal the use of TSA, skirting FISA and to block investigations into war crimes." Do you mean that, as you say, the evidence of war crimes is not in the data being captured (the bursts of activity, if I'm correct)? But that is already in the public domain - we know about it? And are you saying that the "excuse" of hiding the TSA program (with pretence of hiding war crimes) REALLY hides discovery of the conspiracy related to the bursts of activity (captured in places like Verizon)? If I'm correct, could you lay that out more logically, for a simple-minded person?
D. Cheney refusing to comply with oversight - only SEEMS like a separate issue? But what we should really get is that he's doing something illegal (or supervising it) - and the "classification" of illegal activity is against the law, right? And somehow, with all this other stuff going on, going after cheney has dropped off the radar?
IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IN THOSE TWO POSTS? Try to explain to the degree you can. I think I've cracked the "password" for today. And please explain anything else.
Thanks (to the "tooth" fairy)
All Purge wrote on August 3, 2007 10:51 PM:I put the heinous, treasonous crimes that this administration has pulled off with such blatant irreverence as elevating them to a criminal status more culpable than the rightfully convicted persons on death row.
Their blatant disregard for our civil rights, further denial of their responsibility to act in our interest and now sadly repetitive ploy to cast off their responsibility in lieu of recrimination for their next fear based fiasco is unconscionable.
The longer we allow this boil to fester the louder and more far reaching it's eventual eruption.
No, these crimes, if left un-checked will never go away.
We must all act to regain our democracy, and belive and envision that as already on its way.
All Purge
Don S wrote on August 3, 2007 10:55 PM:I thought the oath of office for all of the elected, appointed and military included the part about "protecting and defending" the constitution of the United States.
The intelligence prior to 9/11 gave substantial evidence of the intent of the attack, yet the administration ignored it.
Even if the evidence was in writing giving time, date and details, if it didn't support the administration desires it would be simple ignored.
TheraP wrote on August 3, 2007 10:57 PM:All Purge
You're giving me hope.
mbbsdphil wrote on August 3, 2007 11:02 PM:Adm. McConnell is apparently falling on his sword and pretending that he did not renege on any deal he reached with the Democrats in Congress. He works for the man and is subject to the military chain of command, so he's gotta do what he's gotta do.
Alternatively, he could do what Colin Powell was never able to do, but probably wishes he had. Resign. Resign on a point of principal important to him, his government and his fellow countrymen. Resign on a point of honor. (A notion this administration finds laughable.) His president sent him out to do a job, he did it, and his president cut him off at the knees.
Adm. McConnell's resignation on those terms would have emotional resonance and a rational impact far beyond the FISA debate. He would be reminding all senior military and government officials that their oaths of office are to the Constitution, not to a man, not to an administration, and not to a political party.
kentuck wrote on August 3, 2007 11:03 PM:Message to Al Gore:
Please run as an Independent?
The Democratic Party has lost me. If they cannot defend our rights, what good are they?
The code word is "fear"
Doug wrote on August 3, 2007 11:04 PM:Sorry folks, but the American people do not have a problem giving the President (even this incompetent and corrupt President) the right to spy on foreign phone conversations without a court order. He (and Karl Rove) know this and that is why they have chosen to fight on this issue. It is a guaranteed winner for them. Your doomsday arguments about civil liberties are way over the top. They are no more "reality-based" than the President's hopes for Iraq.
toothfairy wrote on August 3, 2007 11:05 PM:You think 9/11 was simply left to it's own devices? It suited the need for these programs?
?????????
new names? new ideas?
Moondancer wrote on August 3, 2007 11:09 PM:moondancer,
TheraP wrote on August 3, 2007 11:14 PM:I'm the "culprit" using the name Moondancer. Since I'm new to the site I'm open to ideas on how to best distinguish my posts from yours.
Moondancer@5:21
Now we got 2 anons (maybe) and 2 moondancers (for sure)
What else? At least this is not causing a national emergency.
TheraP can't help here.
Joe Powers wrote on August 3, 2007 11:18 PM:The pusillanimous democrats have caved in again to Bush threats and have passed a bill that further weakens our civil liberties and violates the constitution. These people are so f'ing scared of republican issue ads on national security that they have simply left their balls on the senate floor for the republicans to walk over. They don't deserve to be in office.
Roslyn wrote on August 3, 2007 11:19 PM:How can congress go on a vacation when our soldiers are dying everyday.They all say the same thing all the time, bring our troops home. But now it time to take a vacation. There are americans and iraqi civilian dying right now and neither bush nor congress or the american people cares enough to do something about it. I feel sadness for all the young men and women that are giving their lives so these people can enjoy the finer things in life. Most of us doesn't take a month or two vacation. Bush is an bully everyone knows this. I use to be a democrate but not anymore. They are a spinless bunch of boneheads that can't even out smart a president thats not smarter than a 5th grader. Yes, Congress by all means go on your LONG vacations and enjoy much deserve rest. It must takes a lot of energy to figure out new ways to screw youselves and the american people. We needed you to step up and take charge and stop that madman in the whitehouse, the world needed you. We want you to help restore our self-respect in the eyes of the world. We want you to let the world know that we aren't all greedy and power hungry and evil. What does congress do? They go on vacation. You are no better than bush and his people. You are all the same.
Anonymous wrote on August 3, 2007 11:20 PM:With extensive outsourcing, traveling families, business trips, routine business, the number of Americans that would be caught up in any communication - phone, internet phone, web searches, e-mail - with a single international component would be astronomical. Some you'd never know about. Eight hundred and other numbers are, for example, routinely routed internationally to call centers.
But that's the point. Because the underlying technology captures entire data streams; it captures the river, not just the boats floating past. The effort is to make it legal for the govt to do that - with absolutely no restrictions on what it does with that information, including what private contractors it releases it to for "study" (and what they do with it), at any time.
TheraP wrote on August 3, 2007 11:25 PM:Ok. It's the "data stream." And it's possible to sort out streams from rivers or maybe it's even like flow charts, so to speak?
But in any case, to capture the whole shebang. And then you can see "patterns" in it, like waves on on a river, or ripples?
kentuck wrote on August 3, 2007 11:26 PM:Some things are simply unforgivable. Don't bother telling me all the good things you have done for me - after you stab my mother. The Democrats have no idea what they have lost with this vote. If they think the voters are a little angry and will be back in the fold in a couple of days, they are mistaken. They are at the same level of disgust as are the Republicans. I will not surrender my rights to George W Bush, the Republican Party, or the Democratic Party. Go screw yourselves!
TheraP wrote on August 3, 2007 11:28 PM:so - to get the stream, you need world-wide capture
TheraP wrote on August 3, 2007 11:34 PM:data could be released - for "study" - like as if I applied to do "research" and got hold of that, but that somehow that could capture the "essence" of something, the flow, direction? like you could chart election type things?
I'm try to wrap my mind around this - I wonder if that's what they count on - that people would tune out - once it gets too complicated. "just take care of me, make me safe" - they'll say
SteveW wrote on August 3, 2007 11:35 PM:Did they give Fredo oversight of this program? How pathetic! Why? What the fuck is their problem and why don't they care what their base thinks? The Reeps feed their ignorant base just about whatever they wanted when they were in control, yet when we on the left ask for them to stand against this administration, they back down at every turn.
Harry Reid must resign immediately! He's so weak, he only plays to the Repubulican themes of Democratic fragility.
JusticeForall wrote on August 3, 2007 11:37 PM:I'm confused, so does this mean they caved and gave Gonzales more power in FISA decisions and took the judges out of the loop? Is that included? this seems unconstitutional to allow any AG this power, especially Gonzales!
SteveW wrote on August 3, 2007 11:38 PM:Tell me this hasn't been done!
Someone just posted this on Huffington and I couldn't agree more.
Senate Dems blink...give Bush his spy bill.
Senate Dems blink...give him his Iraq funding.
Senate Dems blink...no timetable.
Senate Dems blink...at everything they promised last November.
Senate Dems will blink repeatedly when they wake up at the NEXT election as private citizens.
Hmmm... Democrats blink.
I'm getting awful damned tired of the "blinking" aren't you, fellow Americans? What the hell is their problem? Go ahead and continue "blinking" Democrats and you will blink your way out of a job.
TheraP wrote on August 3, 2007 11:38 PM:It's group therapy for grief and anger here tonight!
With a little paranoia thrown in for good measure.
TheraP wrote on August 3, 2007 11:41 PM:Obviously things have got to change. How do I get on one of those Grand Juries that's supposed to be able to audit and make them comply with the constitution?
kentuck wrote on August 3, 2007 11:41 PM:Message to the Democrats:
And please stop calling up Alberto Gonzales to testify and stop badmouthing the illegal spying that he and Dubya have been indulging in illegally. You have no right to criticize any of them anymore. You have no right to tell us how incompetent or how untrustworthy the Attorney General happens to be. You are no better. So just STFU!
SteveW wrote on August 3, 2007 11:42 PM:Where's the paranoia, TheraP? Did they cave or not? People are angry and frustrated, though I don't read paranoia, just your annoying posts.
TheraP wrote on August 3, 2007 11:46 PM:I could be wrong, Steve. Maybe it's not paranoia. Maybe it's despair.
I don't know if they caved or not - but it looks like Saturday they're set to do some kind of short-term give-away of civil liberties, before they do the long term give-away. Why we have to wait for the coup de grace, I have no idea!
Steve, I'm waiting and hoping that anon is doing a long post. I feel like I'm waiting for godot.
How bout you?
TheraP wrote on August 3, 2007 11:48 PM:I apologize for annoying posts, Steve. And for not noticing you had said that.
And now I'll just be silent.... waiting for godot...
kentuck wrote on August 3, 2007 11:59 PM:I apologize for my anger. But Bush has been waiting since January to spring this on the Democrats. He understands them. He knows they covet their time-off (August recess) moreso than they covet the Constitution or the lipservice they give to it. He timed it perfectly and they folded like a cheap accordion. They are a disgrace.
Now they can go and complete their reservations for that trip to Scotland or that little outing to the Vatican in Italy and not be concerned with little things like Constitutional rights or spying on American citizens. When they return, then they can start all over, telling us how bad Bush and Gonzales are and how they are breaking the laws. Good night all.
The codeword is "sleep".
TheraP wrote on August 4, 2007 12:01 AM:No need to apologize, kentuck.
I wasn't complaining about anything. I could hear the pain - under the anger.
Molly Ivans wrote on August 4, 2007 12:18 AM:Raise Hell !!
Caroline wrote on August 4, 2007 12:20 AM:I just emailed my senators with the following:
I cannot believe what the Senate just did.
I have been unable to determine how you voted.
What is the matter with the Democrats? Why can you not stand up to this Administration? What are you thinking?
This Administration's spying, secret detentions, lying, killing, stealing and cheating is all there for the most common citizen to see and understand.
We want impeachment, not appeasement!! There is no policy that the Democrats can vote into law that will not be vetoed by President Bush. Why are you wasting your time with anything other than impeachment talk and taking them on?
I am incensed and more than dissapointed with the Democrats. I am disgusted. REALLY disgusted.
Do not bother to send me one of those nicey, nicey "thank you for your opinion" messages. I am going to vote for an independent on every ticket that one is available to me. No Democrat and no Republican will get my vote.
tom wrote on August 4, 2007 12:34 AM:Josh, explain this mess. please.
Anonymous wrote on August 4, 2007 12:47 AM:DAMMIT; they blinked again!
Anonymous wrote on August 4, 2007 12:48 AM:Lets start a new party, the Progressive Democratic Revolution (PDR). Well, dang it all to hell. This is so frustrating.
DAMMIT; they blinked again!
jmxharper wrote on August 4, 2007 12:54 AM:Lets start a new party, the Progressive Democratic Revolution (PDR). Well, dang it all to hell. This is so frustrating.
America, what has happened to us - I think I can remember when Pres. said that we cannot let the terrorist change us...
Tom wrote on August 4, 2007 1:06 AM:If this is so, I'm afraid we have already lost that one too, Sir Pres.
Could it possible be that we must remind the Pres. that he is only a Citizen
Like you and me he's just a another human being
just like you and me - please....
My paranoia says that this fuss about accidental electronic eavesdropping on Americans is all a smokescreen. It certainly appeared suddenly, and the illegality looks non-explosive to me. It is what many non-lawyer, non-civil-libertarians would say is a borderline call rather than a real source of outrage that would produce political problems if known.
I say they have confessed to a trivial sin to divert attention from a huge one.
Just before the "leak" of supposedly classified info from Republican loyalist Boehner about what he said was the substance of the problem, rumors centered on data mining as the real illegality that they wanted to keep on doing.
My guess is that this data mining included Nixonian examination of the income, spending patterns and telephone/email networks of a long list of domestic enemies such as all Democratic officeholders, political activists and some other problem people like Chomsky.
Or am I misremembering this timeline and misjudging how disproportionate the political response has been, if the eavesdropping we've heard about is really the big issue?
Moondancer wrote on August 4, 2007 1:16 AM:TheraP:
JimBob wrote on August 4, 2007 1:52 AM:It's been a long week, chock full of BS and arrogance from Bush & Co. I'm fed up, frustrated and incredulous at the unmitigated gall of this administration. Bush seems to conduct all WH business using the same philosophy he applies to his fucked up war in Iraq: Damn any and all facts, reason or evidence that doesn’t support his wacked out version of reality - no matter what the consequences are. Meanwhile, thousands of people are being killed for the sake of spreading democracy throughout the Middle East, while our constitution and democratic principles are being shredded at warp speed.
Yep. It's been a long, frustrating week. Unfortunately I see many more on the horizon.
Moondancer(@5:21)
I'm not sure I can continue to follow political developments. I'm getting an ulcer. The Democrats are cowardly and traitorous and I don't think I can stand it any more. My kids are of an age where they can take over; either they get mad and get involved or they don't. I'm ashamed that this is what we delivered them, especially after the hopes we all had back in the day, for a color-blind, truly democratic world. It's just too painful to watch.
I know I'll be missed. (LOL)
Yossarian wrote on August 4, 2007 1:56 AM:Democrats are a bunch dumb fheads. they should be thrown out of the Congress. I can't believe they just gave this lunatic of a president all these expanded powers to spy on us. Is this why we dems voted for them into power in the congress? I ask you fellow dems. Is this how they will repay our loyalty to them? They are just as bad as the freaking repukelicans. Just look at Sen. Schumer. He doesn't want hedge funds taxed the way you and I are. Wow. Who does this freak work for? Us of the freaking hedge funds? If hedge funds he needs to leave the senate and go make his money there instead showing off at these kangaroo court trials of an idiotic and corrupt justice department.
wbboei wrote on August 4, 2007 2:00 AM:George W. Bush will be the death of the Republican Party. No president in history has been more hostile to the interests of our country, our people and our constitution. And the party has supported him every step of the way.
Twopipes wrote on August 4, 2007 2:09 AM:So does that mean you aren't going to vote Democratic in the next election?
friday wrote on August 4, 2007 2:43 AM:TheraP @ 10:43 PM
I too am trying to absorb Anon’s messages to understand the big picture. My two messages were questions for Anon to see if I’d boiled any part of it down. I was hoping to see a reply from Anon.
The big picture seems to be that war crimes have been committed abroad. No questions there - abandoning common article 3 of Geneva. And at home, abandoning the constitution by skirting FISA. And I think he’s saying that looking for RNC e-mails that may or may not have been destroyed is not necessary because of this third-party IP data capture stuff. An example is the link to the case with Verizon that captured internal admin traffic. The internal traffic was a reaction to a leak about possible illegal activity. The complicity of Legal Counsel, DOJ, and RNC (through the non-WH e-mail system) shows they were aware of the illegal activity. Destroying this evidence or classifying it is a crime and this third-party IP data capture or linking or whatever it is proof that there was complicity and parties were aware.
And I get the feeling Anon is trying to say that the WH and the DOJ are using the NSA TSP as a way to keep tabs on investigations but that this is leaving a trail. I may be way off. I’m just trying to pitch in and parse Anon’s messages.
Why would he/she bring it to TPM? The TPM commenters, the citizen journalists, were the ones that brought the fired USA scandal to light, right? This is the place, right? That’s how I heard about TPM. I saw Josh on Bill Moyers.
It doesn't appear that the Dems on the hill are too worried about this stuff. Giving Gonzales the job of oversight? Asking the bank robber to watch the money while the tellers go out for lunch? What?
Citizen journalists. There is a way.
anon wrote on August 4, 2007 2:53 AM:...at a certain level - specifically, at a certain height - Dems and Cons and Bushies commingle indistinguishably...
It's deeply unfortunately but it's obvious that it's true. I don't think we are doing our job--as citizens--if we deny it, as much as we might want the Dems to be the good guys. Even if the Bushies are removed from office and some general semblence of democracy returns, there are still fundamental problems with our political culture. It may be that it's always been the case but it's clean that we've drifted into a political culture that's much closer to, say, Japan or Mexico has had in the post-war era than, say, the UK or Canada. It's the power structure that's shifted. Sure, corporations and defense contractors and oil barons and whomever have had more power than, say, black congressmen or southern governors over the years but they difference now is that some of these power bases have more power than, say, all of congress on certain issues. I don't think our political system will stablize until power is more evenly distributed, regardless of which party is in power.
DDA wrote on August 4, 2007 3:39 AM:AaaaaHhhhhh! Murder Incorporated strikes again and agin wins of course on a recess iisue because VACATION is more important then National Issues.
Lets see the Racist Nazis Committee (RNC) want a and complete break down of the American culture and its freedoms and in the same breath as they MURDER innocent American under the guise of a illegal war and FEDERAL CUTBACKS on Infastructure they are further cheered on by the ready willing and able assistants the Dems who ask for money and go on much needed vacations . Oh Oh cry about being out numbered GUTLESS Bastards
LucieLee wrote on August 4, 2007 3:53 AM:George W. Bush's teflon coat gets thicker every day. When are the Dems gonna grow a backbone~~~~? this is such a sham...........Thanks TPM, for telling it like it is......
LucieLee wrote on August 4, 2007 3:53 AM:George W. Bush's teflon coat gets thicker every day. When are the Dems gonna grow a backbone~~~~? this is such a sham...........Thanks TPM, for telling it like it is......
Anonymous wrote on August 4, 2007 4:29 AM:sounds like TRUST ISSUES
OCPatriot wrote on August 4, 2007 4:36 AM:Doesn't matter what anybody believes any more. I thought the Democrats would stand firm for about a year; I was wrong. They're all inarticulate, disorganized and afraid. We need to replace the President, the Intelligence chiefs and the Congress, especially the lamebrained Senators. They seem to be ignoring their ratings, or they're oblivious.
fooj wrote on August 4, 2007 6:25 AM:Gonzo gets a promotion. Isn't that special? Jr.'s resident THUG suffers no consequences for his behavior...just rewards a-plenty. I guess Charles Manson wasn't available. Treasonous, rat bastards. Every last one of them who enable these war criminals!!!
Speechless wrote on August 4, 2007 6:43 AM:So, (if I follow the subtext of this story correctly): The shell game is on. With sleight of hand BushCo are pointing to terrorist threats and blaming the Dems for not giving them adequate ability to know the mind of the terrorist in advance by allowing them to collect a torrential inflow of information throw data mining, wire taps etc.
And while adroitly guiding our attention to that shell, the nut of the story is now safely hidden in his pocket. The nut of the story is that Bush Co can now safely get away with their various illegal ops-- election rigging, getting rid of political enemies and propping up false claims of neccessary war-mongering-- without fear of reprisal from US inJustice system.
Even in the comments here you can see how the shell ame plays out. We are so flabbergasted and outraged by the flaccid response of a Democratic controlled Senate that we can't see that BushCo has pocketed the nut.
Poor us, poor We the people, suckered once again, gulled every time. Is it our hope, our idealism that makes us so hopeless? Aye, but it our hope and idealism which also makes us great. We need to re-embrace our ideals and be tireless in protecting them.
moondancer wrote on August 4, 2007 8:03 AM:Congress needs to say- This ends here.
John wrote on August 4, 2007 8:22 AM:Standing up to a bully is the only way. I agree with earlier threads that this is probably Cheneys' work.
Bush needs congress to be complant, its time to call his bluff and have the confrontation.
What are you hiding? THe argument that to tell what were doing would help the enemy is childish. To imply that noone in the govt can know about whats being done implies the govt is filled w/traitors. To want no oversight from either congress or judicial is, well tyranny.
If I were congress I would tell Bush that if he goes any further with this they will impeach as a way of investigation.
no wonder the Dem's can't win elections...i wonder what impact the new law will have on the 08 elections based on past illegal behaviors.
benjoya wrote on August 4, 2007 8:22 AM:I can understand Ms. Pellosi's lack of desire to initiate impeachment proceedings . I don't agree, but I can understand her point. I DO NOT UNDERSTAND HER WILLINGNESS TO GO ALONG WITH THIS CHANGE TO FISA. The same for all the Democrats.
the house hasn't caved.
yet.
John wrote on August 4, 2007 8:22 AM:No wonder the Dem's can't win elections..I wonder what impact the new law will have on the 08 elections based on past illegal behaviors.
John wrote on August 4, 2007 8:23 AM:No wonder the Dem's can't win elections.
Anonymous wrote on August 4, 2007 8:24 AM:no wonder the Dem's can't win elections...i wonder what impact the new law will have on the 08 elections based on past illegal behaviors.
Anonymous wrote on August 4, 2007 8:24 AM:no wonder the Dem's can't win elections...i wonder what impact the new law will have on the 08 elections based on past illegal behaviors.
Robert wrote on August 4, 2007 8:45 AM:They knew that the president would call them back from their vacation if they didn't do what he wanted. It was getting late at night and they wanted to get out of there so they could start their vacation. At that point, they would have done anything at all just to leave. They caved in
TheraP wrote on August 4, 2007 8:50 AM:just for some vacation time. The hell with what is right, just let us out of here.
Trust issues. Despair. Friday, I think you've got it - as confusing as it is. And anon after Friday, yes, you too. And Speechless, you've calmly summarized it well, I believe. (and many others on this thread - don't think I'm leaving you out here - you cared enough to write)
And we're all waiting and hoping and wishing - but as some said way up thread it's probably just going to go on like this...
And yes, we're losing all faith - trust - even in the Dems becoming patriots - who would be willing to die (a political death) for the sake of putting the constitution to rights. We're all asking for someone in the administration to resign, or to be a whistle-blower. But I wonder if the real truth is that this thing could be solved if the whole Congress - or a large enough number - simply did the right thing - even if it cost them their seat next time around.
We're looking for courage. The willingness to fight - if necessary to the political death - to make sure there is auditing of everything that is required under the constitution - and passing laws, over the veto of the president - to that end, and looking under every rock - in every nook and cranny - to ferret out the MUCK - and clean it up.
I agree with Anon (wherever you may be... and maybe you're expecting us to figure this out on our own) that the Constitution does remain intact. And that it is a simple document. Clear-cut. And should be followed.
But to follow it, I think we are waiting for something that isn't going to happen. Where is Paul Wellstone when you need him? I think many on this site would be willing to resign, willing to let go of power and position, willing to work hard to see the restoration of the rule of law.
I know I would. I would volunteer for one of those Grand Juries. And I'm sure it would often be boring as hell to be on one. But if we had a bunch of them. One in every state. All coordinating - we might be able to do it. So how do I get on one of these Grand Juries? I'd do it for free. I'd do it anonymously. And you know what? I think anonymously is the only way to do it. Because too many people get corrupted by the power, the being famous part and all that it brings.
I'm sorry for musing in the morning.
Yes, if some people cannot stand up, resign if that's what it takes, blow the whistle - taking whatever risks they know that would take, and do the right thing by passing legislation regardless of what the big hedge funds etc. would say about the rest of your political career... then we're stuck in the hands of the devious, the power-hungry, the deceitful, the greedy, the cronies, the shell-game.
We're waiting for "them" to turn into a bunch of people like us...
So we're waiting... for the good guys..
That's godot, folks. And we may be waiting in vain.
word is "fire" --
jim wrote on August 4, 2007 9:15 AM:dumbocrats. I cannot believed their spinelessness.
DaveW wrote on August 4, 2007 9:18 AM:Here's how it goes...
WH gets the authority to expand spying
Collects information to stop the 2008nelection by
- Allowing a Terrorist Attack (GOP & Administration could care less on how many citizens are killed - who cares the more the better)
- Bush / Cheney puts Executive Order giving the President authority over the entire government.
- Through the authority cancels the 2008 election
- Declares the GOP and Administration stay in power "For as long as it takes"
Welome to the Cheney / Bush overthrough of government and the voiding of the US Constitution.
I cry for my children and grand-children.
kentuck wrote on August 4, 2007 9:29 AM:Sixteen Democrats and Joe Lieberman voted with all the Republicans to give this authority to Bush and Gonzales and the spy networks. Even Jim Webb voted for this POS.
We know that some of them have seen the intelligence reports and some simply choose to believe what they are told. No doubt, George W Bush slept very well last night, knowing that he had stuck it to the Democrats, without Vaseline. Yep. It's a proud day for the Democratic Party.
(The codeword is "wood") :-)
jeff spicolli wrote on August 4, 2007 9:40 AM:The new FISA law that has become so urgent must be negotiated now.
Let the telecoms off the hook.
Do not let Bush off the hook.
Include language that requires Bush to be forthcoming with all evidence including executive deliberations on any and all survellience programs in closed session with the full intelligence committee, whether it was legeal or illegal conduct.
lghtbulb wrote on August 4, 2007 9:56 AM:Perhaps Larry Flynt will offer $1,000,000 to the person who can produce the documentation that will bring down this administration????
Craig wrote on August 4, 2007 10:14 AM:Well, I have to admit that I've lost whatever little confidence I had in the so-called Dem leadership in both the house and the senate. Are we really that bad at politics? I am starting to believe that our 25% president and his band of idiots (and that includes everyone he surrounds himself with, and the freaks that represent the Replublic party - all of the so called presiden't enablers) must have a huge book filled with photos of the entire Dem house and senate members in compromising positions of all sorts. How else to explain the inability of our leadership to hear/show leadership toward achieving the will of the people? What are they afraid of?
Maybe it is more simple than that. There are politicians - irrespective of party, concerned with nothing but listening to their own voices and retaining their power - and non-politicians, and we are the ones who simply shake our heads and wonder about the utterly broken process that has become our government.
As a very optimistic person (usually), I admit to being very close to just giving up and completing the unplugging from society that we've begun. Most of our TV is gone (just basic cable)....cancelled all but the Sunday NY Times. Heading for the garden, then the kayak. This 51 year old liberal has seen enough to cause stomach problems for the rest of his life.
starwheel wrote on August 4, 2007 10:14 AM:I'd be remiss if I didn't concede one point to the wingnuts.
The Democrats ARE spineless cut and run cowards.
SC: waste
John wrote on August 4, 2007 10:21 AM:this bill shows why the dem's can't win elections and may impact the 08 election in terms of disrupting voting results and not allowing prospective voters to vote...so sad.
John wrote on August 4, 2007 10:21 AM:this bill shows why the dem's can't win elections and may impact the 08 election in terms of disrupting voting results and not allowing prospective voters to vote...so sad.
Anonymous wrote on August 4, 2007 10:22 AM:i've said it before i will say it again!!!!
Bu$s has sold our country away and as for saftey in America.... heck he has done for for unsecuring our Country than anyone can ever do ...He is a tyrant and will without fail go down in history as the wrost pres ever!!! Have we not noticed its his way or no way ....Wake up America speak out to your Reps and Congressmen/women....
Clean house all more interested in vacations time ... we stand no chance and supporting the troops .. is their needs for vacations more important ?????? Our troops are tired as hell and we ask them to give their lives for $$$$$ and Bu$hism .....
Disgusting !!! the whole lot
SteveW wrote on August 4, 2007 10:24 AM:Okay, TheraP...I apologize for the comments. It was late and after all the Jake and JakeD troll posts, I was a bit defensive, angry, frustrated...and yes, paranoid:)
I need a vacation from politics and the Democratic Party. Otherwise my health is going to fail. I've helped run campaigns, donated a good amount of money, worked the polls, written letters, etc..and to what avail? Look at what we have for Democratic "leadership"....they are a pathetic bunch. It's all just a game to them and they're on the same page as Bush, just playing to the cameras to pacify us, the base, until they cave.
Xman wrote on August 4, 2007 10:30 AM:"Is our lesson done?", my friends?
Do we finally know that Bushco has no intention of listening to any experts or generals when his "gut" disagrees?
In every other relationship in our lives, if someone behaved like Bushco, we would have ignored and gotten rid of them by now.
It is time to treat the crazy man and his friends like a crazy man and friends...and take charge of the asylum.
motleyrox wrote on August 4, 2007 10:51 AM:It is a time for change. We can't trust the executive branch and the Congress does not appear to care about the people's or the state's interests as they move whichever way the dunces what them to. Sad, sad, sad.
Miss Brita wrote on August 4, 2007 10:53 AM:Ahhhh Yes...."Parlay".....just ...."guidelines"....Argh Mateys.......We need to take back our white house and our Constitution...
Maybe the President and Mr. Navy "Caver" Steny need to rewatch Pirates of the Carribean...."Guidelines" Yeah Right.....
Kungfublood wrote on August 4, 2007 11:05 AM:Get back official FISA review or God will send a wrath sooo bad it will make 911 look like a walk in the park. Bridges, thats nothing...
Whew that place stinks! Some times it is necessary to take all the furniture out of the house in order to get rid of the stench. Of course if the same people go back in nothing changes.
Kungfublood wrote on August 4, 2007 11:16 AM:Kucinich,Gravel,and Ron Paul and a very few others seam to be the only responsible tenets.
Wheu that place stanks!
Gore? The whore that laughs on national TV as indigenous people commit mass suicide on their native land because Gore the whore wants the oil under it! And he helped to ban the records of an American genius Frank Zappa. Long live FRANK ZAPPA! May whore Gore's member wither and leak.
Don wrote on August 4, 2007 11:22 AM:I can safely say that the United States is now a mere shadow of it's former self. It is no more a DEMOCRACY that Saudi Arabia or Russia! Our political "leaders" have demonstrated yet once agaiun that they are creatures of habit and can't help but make the political calculations dictated to them by those mysteriously invaluable political consultants who work in the background.
The US is indeed a FAILED DEMOCRACY and the terrorists have won, not just the al qaedas, but all the others who felt threatened by a strong democratic super power and were willing to use their "anti-government" antics to destroy this country from within. Congratulations! But your victory will remain a hollow one! The true spirit of American democray will be reestablished throughout the land as more of the public awakens from it's right wing induced slumber and complacency.
TheraP wrote on August 4, 2007 11:26 AM:Steve W: No apology needed. You were correct.
& Everyone:
We are all worn out to some degree. It's like living at a fever pitch, knowing how high the st