Comments (236)

Jon wrote on July 27, 2007 9:18 AM:

Tillman was very vocal about the foolishness of fighting in Iraq, when the real enemy was bin Laden in Afganistan. He told people he was going to make this public when he got back to the USA on leave.

Palolo lolo wrote on July 27, 2007 9:22 AM:

That's called murder. And they knew it. That's why the White House is claiming executive privilege on
those documents. And like everything else,they'll just run out the clock.

The code word to enter to prevent the auto response
was snake. How appropriate

Anonymous wrote on July 27, 2007 9:23 AM:

Tilman was a fervent critic of the Iraq war. Could have been a problem for the unit.

Outraged wrote on July 27, 2007 9:25 AM:

Like Jon Stewart said a couple of weeks ago, "People ask how you deal with it all, but you do. Now, I'm not saying that when I'm eighty or something someone will offer me a glass of milk and I won't just have a complete breakdown right there..." or something to that effect.

I bring this up because, at this point, I just don't know how much more I can handle. I so hope this isn't true.

P.S. -- My "security code" to post this is "PAIN". So much pain...

.

party-of-one wrote on July 27, 2007 9:32 AM:

If the general who covered up the murder had actually committed it, would have have lost two stars instead of just one? Are the charges of perjury, obstruction and aiding/abetting-after-the-fact coming?

Mark Klein wrote on July 27, 2007 9:37 AM:

This is simply the most venal, criminal, mendacious, incompetent, anti-constitutional, larcenous, immoral administration in our history. I have serious doubts if the Republic will survive these bastards. My outrage is long since worn down. Oh. So they covered up the murder of a "hero". I'm shocked. Shocked.

How many people have these assholes killed? Not only in their illegal war, but by simple incompetence and greed. We will never know how many innocents died in the days after Katrina.

Way to go, Supremes. You appointed a brown shirt mafia to helm our nation.

Pray for an election, folks. Any election. These assholes are totally capable of faking a terrorist attack and imposing martial law.

truth seeker wrote on July 27, 2007 9:42 AM:

President Bush continues to claim executive privilege in protecting documents detailing the circumstances of Pat Tillman's death. Can and will the President make an uneqivocal statement assuring the public that Tillman was not murdered?

D.R. Marvel wrote on July 27, 2007 9:43 AM:

party-of-one asks: "Are the charges of perjury, obstruction and aiding/abetting-after-the-fact coming?"

No...

(This has been another episode of "Simple Answers to Simple Questions"...With apologies to Atrios)

J Green wrote on July 27, 2007 9:54 AM:

I'm confused by these two points - if they were under fire, how was there no evidence of that enemy fire? In any case, all the records must be released, we deserve the truth.

In his last words moments before he was killed, Tillman snapped at a panicky comrade under fire to shut up and stop "sniveling."

_ No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene _ no one was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck.

Bob's not Right wrote on July 27, 2007 9:55 AM:

We need an end game. Impeachment is not going to happen and the only real power the congress has right now is the ability to investigate and subpoena.

Here is a scenario that I think could have an impact both politically and legally, however the gamble is retaining control of congress (and possibly the WH).

Start the pressure on the smaller players of criminal indictment after 2009, letting them know that this is just the discovery phase that will play out over the next year and a half. Use the public hearings to keep pounding away at the credibility of the administration, every time the AG testifies he looks like he is lying. When the WH states in a letter that they will not prosecute they look corrupt, let them claim executive privilege until the cows come home.

Craft the corruption gently into he 2008 election agenda something like responses “well yes, if crimes were committed then I would have to do my sworn duty to refer them to prosecution.” Don’t overplay but keep the message that this is not over when the current administration leaves office.

Pound, pound, pound away behind the scenes at the Sara Taylor’s, Kyle Sampson’s and Monica Goodling’s and others that their jeopardy is just beginning. Bring them back up to testify, sue them in civil court squeeze them until they start telling the whole truth.

Keep dividing the Republicans in congressional races, let them keep saying “no crimes were committed, this is all partisan politics”, that credibility ship has already sailed. Shape the issue to Constitutional powers and equality under law, keep calm and stay focused.

I am willing to be more patient if I know that the wheels are turning and that accountability will happen. The president may never suffer criminally but at least we can make him a king with no kingdom and I'll settle for destroying the enablers and burning the village of deceit to the ground.

ManaoutOfTime wrote on July 27, 2007 9:57 AM:

Security code: screw

Says it all.

Constantin wrote on July 27, 2007 10:01 AM:

Wasn't Tillman a Ranger, not Special Forces?

the real cookie wrote on July 27, 2007 10:05 AM:

J Green - my question exactly.

* wrote on July 27, 2007 10:06 AM:

Stunning to contemplate? I'm not surprised at all, unfortunately. The military has and will lie about anything. Perpetual war is the goal here.

GG wrote on July 27, 2007 10:07 AM:

that was a good point why was a man sniveling if they were not under some sort of attack.. I get that. However, doesn't it seem all the articles are written to stir up your queries? Maybe that was fabricated to make it look like someone in the unit took him out. A sniveling rifle toting American..lol sounds about right

greg wrote on July 27, 2007 10:08 AM:

LOOK FOLKS THIS IS WAR THIS SHIT HAPPENS. IN WW1 AND 2 YOU JUST DIDN'T HAVE ALL FACTS. WHAT THE VITENAM VETS ,WHO WERE KILLING ONE ANOTHER,AGAIN ITS WAR FOLKS!!!!!!!!!

GG wrote on July 27, 2007 10:11 AM:

greg you're loosin' it. & I wouldn't want you in my unit.. let's say I was having a bad day... eeeeyk

ming wrote on July 27, 2007 10:11 AM:

perjery resulted "execution" of an innocent person can receive a capital punishment in Singapore..
lucky dud only lost one of his star...

Frank wrote on July 27, 2007 10:14 AM:

By the administration claiming executive priviledg in withholding the Tillman tragedy story, it becomes prima faci evidence that he was murdered. I will think this horrendous happening until all the Tillman material is released. What else am I to believe?

My heart aches for the Tillman family..It was more than enough to lose a son; to lose him with such a cloud hanging over his loss, made more suspicious by Bush witholding information agout his death, is just too too much over the top.

I hope the Tillman family is deluged with lawyers wanting to take the case pro bono in order to uncover the truth..

Mart wrote on July 27, 2007 10:14 AM:

Sounds like the "stop sniveling" comment was part of the original story and was left in as the story morphed. Like J Green said, it contradicts the rest of it. As for not being well-liked in the unit, that may be - but how often does that lead to fragging among troops who are supposed to be among the most highly trained in the world? If that is what happened did the shooter(s) not understand how much spotlight would be turned on them, killing the poster boy? I'm deeply suspicious of this incident, especially considering Generals were willing to risk their careers to cover it up. If Pat Tillman came back and started talking, he would have a big microphone and the ear of all those potential recruits.

global citizen wrote on July 27, 2007 10:16 AM:

I really thought that I was beyond being shocked by political events -- not so much that he may have been murdered so much as the total cover-up and the fact that this is still not the leading story in today's news.

I cannot see one general covering something this big on his own initiative. What kept everyone in the unit silent? Who silenced the doctors? Who silenced those that investigated?

greg wrote on July 27, 2007 10:17 AM:

look i did not say its right but this stuff happens in war, you said i wouldn't want to be in your unit,so what!!!! i been there sererveal times 2nd battalion 6th marines,it happens what can you do! who knows the truth.

Bindarra wrote on July 27, 2007 10:18 AM:

My hubby is a Vietnam vet, so he knows about combat and stress under fire, and I discussed this with him last night. He believes Tillman was murdered, says it happened frequently in Vietnam, especially with unpopular, take-charge officers.

I've never been under fire, but I hope I'd have behaved with Pat Tillman's integrity. If what he's reported to have said to his comrade was correct, I'd have said the same thing -- don't ask God to save you, do something about yourself and thank him later.

GG wrote on July 27, 2007 10:19 AM:

2mart: that is the worst idea, but it looms....

GREG wrote on July 27, 2007 10:22 AM:

LOOK THERE ARE MORE MURDERS IN THE UNITED STATES IN ONE YEAR THEN HALF THE WAR IN THE MID EAST,NOW THAT IS A FREAKING PROBLEM WE CAN DO SOMTHING ABOUT. THIS WAR IRIAQ CIVILIANS ARE DYING EVER DAY ARE THEY LESS PRECIOUS IN LIFE. AGAIN THIS IS WAR FOLKS GET YOUR PRIORTYS AND THE BIG PICTURE!!!!!!!!!!!1

AnneW wrote on July 27, 2007 10:22 AM:

For the seeming inconsistency of a comment of "stop snivelling" and no sign of enemy fire, it could be that they were preparing to depart on a dangerous mission and not all were feeling up to the mission.

Just a thought.

Dave of Maryland wrote on July 27, 2007 10:25 AM:

So was it fragging, or was it a hit?

If it was a hit, who ordered it?

Security code: Smell!!!

Anonymous wrote on July 27, 2007 10:25 AM:

There's a huge amount of anecdotal evidence from WWI and WWII of men being shot deliberatly and accidentally by members of their own unit, so that, in itself, should not be a major revelation.
What would be, however, is a cover up by a general officer.
It could become a metaphor for this Bush misadventure even though most persons who now oppose the attack on Iraq, feel the invasion of Afganistan was justified.

Mart wrote on July 27, 2007 10:27 AM:

greg - everyone knows shit happens in war. The point is the context of what happened here. Tillman wasn't just any soldier, he was THE poster boy for recruiting - the All-American who gives up a comfortable life for his country. Also remember when it happened this administration had almost unchecked power - their fantasies of a multi-front war were becoming reality, but successfully occupying newly vanquished foes was going to require a huge inflow of new recruits. If your poster boy starts quoting Chomsky and talking about how illegal it all is, well, all those bright-eyed kids back in Oklahoma just might listen.

AnneW wrote on July 27, 2007 10:32 AM:

Also, while fragging and friendly fire accidents do occur, how often does the victim get to be called a hero?

How often are they issued silver stars for being killed by their fellow soldiers, intentional or not?

frankly0 wrote on July 27, 2007 10:33 AM:

In many ways, this is an even better case for Democrats to push back against the Bush WH claim of executive privilege than the US Attorneys case.

It has a sympathetic figure, a very real, tangible, and human crime being potentially covered up, and absolutely no plausible justification for the invocation of executive privilege. It just looks like a straight, noontime in the middle of the road act to coverup by the Bush WH. It's very easy to understand for the lay public, and to engender in them a very genuine outrage.

Democrats should push at this for all its worth.

solar wrote on July 27, 2007 10:34 AM:

The chaplain's testimony has to be taken with a grain of salt in light of the Army's antipathy towards the atheism of the Tillman family.

The 75th Ranger Regiment is part of the USASOC, as is the SFC. Tillman was a Ranger, not SF.

JL wrote on July 27, 2007 10:34 AM:

Greg, whether it happens all the time is not relevant to this conversation. What is relevant though, is why is President Bush claiming executive privilege. It seems as the slow drips of truth are more harmful to the parents and to the administration. My security code was face. Like in face the facts.

bob voso wrote on July 27, 2007 10:35 AM:

Greg, stop sniveling

greg wrote on July 27, 2007 10:35 AM:

again i half to explain war if you like it and you in the service its a plus! if you don't you will find any reason,any to start problems ,and quite frankly my dear ,if a have a poster boy ,and he hates the war that is his problem ,it becomes mine when he starts to endanger my life or others for his attiltude. when you join you take the oath,no one made him join there is no draft ,war has a way of weeding through the weak!!!!!!!!!

jay severin has a small pen1s wrote on July 27, 2007 10:37 AM:

"The three-star general who kept the truth about Tillman's death from his family and the public told investigators some 70 times that HE HAD A BAD MEMORY and couldn't recall details of his actions."

Spoken like a true Republican

Clem wrote on July 27, 2007 10:38 AM:

A triple-tap to the forehead sounds like a coup de grace to me. Weren't Tillman's uniform and flak vest destroyed after his death? I've never understood why that was done, but this new information suggests a possible answer: if the uniform and vest showed evidence of multiple, non-penetrating hits to the body, including rounds embedded in the armor, such damage would strongly suggest that Tillman was first knocked to the ground by "friendly" fire. Strong though he was, he'd have been hard-pressed to get up again. Knocked down, and probably not more than thirty feet from the shooter(s), it would quickly have become clear that he was no longer a threat, if not obviously a friendly. But, once the shooter(s) realized that they'd fired upon one of their own - and a high-profile, nationally famous comrade at that - panic at their error, compounded by the adrenaline rush and confusion of the preceding firefight, coupled with personal enmity, might have led to an impulsive act of murder: a three round burst from close range. If that's at all close to what really happened, then the destruction of the uniform and body armor was meant to hide evidence that Tillman was already down, injured and not a threat when he received the three bullets to the forehead. It may not have been a pre-meditated act of fratricide, but it may well have been an opportunistic murder.

Someone in his unit needs to start telling the honorable truth, now.

greg wrote on July 27, 2007 10:39 AM:

bush didn't kill tillman ,what the fk

JL wrote on July 27, 2007 10:41 AM:

Greg, defending the indefensible makes you look like a coward.. Sorry but your comment sounds like the rapist who says his victim deserved it. You need to shower and wash the filth off your body. Security word glove, like I wouldn't even touch you with protective gloves on.

AnneW wrote on July 27, 2007 10:44 AM:

Greg you said...
"when you join you take the oath,no one made him join there is no draft ,war has a way of weeding through the weak".

Correct, and usually when soldiers MURDER fellow soldiers, they face the consequences for their actions. I seem to remember a certain soldier rolling a grenade into his officer's tent at the beginning of the Iraq war...was he allowed to go free and the officer's killed and wounded, did they get citations for heroism?

It sounds like the weakling would be the fellow that killed a fellow volunteer.

Mrs. Beasley wrote on July 27, 2007 10:44 AM:

war has a way of weeding through the weak!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: greg
Date: July 27, 2007 10:35 AM

What's a little murder amongst friends?

greg wrote on July 27, 2007 10:45 AM:

why would you want to touch me,you gay blade,you call it sniveling i call it bullshit ,tillman is the only one over that died ,

AnneW wrote on July 27, 2007 10:47 AM:

Greg, is your real name Jake?

Bindarra wrote on July 27, 2007 10:47 AM:

Greg, your contempt for Pat Tillman, and those of us who believe the truth about his death should be exposed, is breathtaking. Your attempted excuses says a lot about your lack of patriotism. Remember, your oath was to the Constitution, not the Commander in Chief.

Orwell's Intuition wrote on July 27, 2007 10:48 AM:

"Greg, stop sniveling
Posted by: bob voso"

LOL! Best. response. ever.

Code word: loss. Kind of says it all, doesn't it?

Lee Stranahan wrote on July 27, 2007 10:48 AM:

The last couple of grafs in the piece are interesting...the story changes and I don't really believe either one of them.

It has been widely reported by the AP and others that Spc. Bryan O'Neal, who was at Tillman's side as he was killed, told investigators that Tillman was waving his arms shouting "Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat (expletive) Tillman, damn it!" again and again.

But the latest documents give a different account from a chaplain who debriefed the entire unit days after Tillman was killed.

The chaplain said that O'Neal told him he was hugging the ground at Tillman's side, "crying out to God, help us. And Tillman says to him, `Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God's not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling ..."

Anonymous wrote on July 27, 2007 10:49 AM:

As an ex-GI who never saw combat I have a profound respect for those who have seen it.
That said, I have to ask those who have been in combat to spare me the "s#*t happens" excuse for murder. "Fragging" is murder even if we can understand why men would hate some jr officer who is just a little too gung ho and chicken s#*t to boot.

JL wrote on July 27, 2007 10:50 AM:

Greg, Wrong again. Grew up in a military family, and I'm the mother of two sons, but if words like gay help you, whatever. Two of my brothers are retired officers and they don't believe in cover-ups either.

greg wrote on July 27, 2007 10:51 AM:

who really cares ,does it pay my bills, does it offer me a retirement plan, do i get medical,really how much of the public cares ,

Anonymous wrote on July 27, 2007 10:52 AM:

Has our troll assumed a new identiy?
Inquiring minds want to know.
This kid needs to get a girlfriend and a life.

Barringer wrote on July 27, 2007 10:53 AM:

Read the article about Pat Tillman and his death from Sports Illustrated, Sept. 5, 2006. It's not consistent with the medical examiner's notes.

Old Gun Toter wrote on July 27, 2007 10:56 AM:

Shot three (3) times in the forehead? From ten yards away? In a combat fire situation? Let's get a little real folks, that's not what happened

r€nato wrote on July 27, 2007 10:56 AM:

I'm stunned and shocked. This would certainly explain why BushCo is so intent on covering up the documents regarding Tillman's death - it's about a lot more than the tragic accidental death of their recruiting poster boy.

twc wrote on July 27, 2007 10:57 AM:

A slight correction: in the second sentence, Tillman is described as being in a "Special Forces unit" in Afghanistan. In fact, Tillman was in a Ranger unit. He was not in the Special Forces, which are separate and distinct from the Army's conventional infantry forces (even those such as the Rangers, which have additional training and generally get "long-range" missions). The Special Forces, informally referred to as the "Green Berets," are unconventional forces trained to work in small teams with local forces doing long-term counter-insurgency missions. They have their own units and chain of command within the Army.

Rick B wrote on July 27, 2007 10:59 AM:

greg,

Bush is either covering up the circumstances, or he is permitting the cover-up to continue. Why?

As for Executive Privilege, in what way does concealing the documents of the investigation from the public ensure that the President can get advice from his advisers without them fearing that what they advised would bounce back badly on them? The ONLY connection between Bush and Tillman's death is the cover-up. A cover-up of a crime does not qualify for Executive Privilege.

Besides, the doctrine of Executive Privilege is Common Law. It is judge-made law, found neither in the Constitution nor in statuatory law. As such Congress can pass a law that defines Executive Privilege or even eliminates it. They should do so.

University wrote on July 27, 2007 11:01 AM:

The three holes are significant because the M16 has a three shot setting, so one American could have executed him at close range.

Anonymous wrote on July 27, 2007 11:02 AM:

One of the best articles about the event was published by ESPN. If you read it, you will see that, as comprehensive as it was, it was still hampered by lack of full information and lies that were still being passed by the Army and the Bush administration.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=tillmanpart1

What's notable about it further is what O'Neal said about the last minutes of Tillman's life:

"O'Neal, a 19-year-old soldier who had been positioned on the ridge just a few yards from Tillman during the firefight, sat quietly through most of the meeting. Eventually, though, his few, riveting words brought a hush over the assembled platoon. Another soldier at the session, Spc. Pedro Arreola, told ESPN.com that O'Neal, fighting back tears and shaking with emotion, said: "The only reason I am standing here is because Pat Tillman saved my life."

Pat Tillman was awarded a Silver Star and Purple Heart, but five weeks after his death it was revealed he was killed by friendly fire.

That night, O'Neal didn't detail for his fellow Rangers exactly how Tillman had saved him. But later, according to a transcript of his interview with an Army investigator, O'Neal said he'd been out in the open and under intense fire while Tillman had what O'Neal described as "pretty good cover." Tillman, O'Neal told the investigator, "wasn't really too much in danger," although the Afghan Military Forces soldier already lay off to the side, dead.

"I was watching them as they were shooting at me," O'Neal told the investigator, speaking about his fellow Rangers, "and I was watching the rounds when they were — and Pat could look around — and I was noticing that most of their fire seemed to be directed towards me. And he moved out from behind his cover to throw some smoke.…All I remember was him telling me, 'Hey, don't worry, I've got something that can help us.' And he popped a smoke [grenade], I guess, and that's when he got shot — one of the few times he got shot.""

Not quite what the AP and the Chaplain wnat us to hear, is it?

greg wrote on July 27, 2007 11:04 AM:

IT'S LIKE THIS FOLKS BECAUSE OF POSTER BOY TILLMAN THE ARMY JUST GOT A BAD WRAP . CONGRESS DIDN'T DO IT,BUSH DIDN'T DO IT!!! LEAVE THE WAR COME HOME AND WHY WE ARE NOT WORKING ON OUR BORDERS OF THE UNITED STATES DON'T CRY ABOUT THE 911 ,,,,,,,OVER,,GREG

University wrote on July 27, 2007 11:05 AM:

The three holes are significant because the M16 has a three shot setting, so one American could have executed him at close range.

Kristin wrote on July 27, 2007 11:05 AM:

Look, the sniveling comment does not contradict anything. The ONLY time someone can snivel is if they're under fire??? I've seen men snivel for a lot less. This soldier could have been whining because he was exhausted, or his socks were wet, or he had just had enough, or he was generally scared about the day ahead. Who knows.

Austin Cooper wrote on July 27, 2007 11:05 AM:

As a metaphor for the 'administration' (lies upon lies, surrounded by more lies) Tillman's death seems apt.

He was originally touted as the all-American hero who voluntarily gave up a lucrative Pro football career after September 11th to join the Army... and not just as a grunt, but as an Army Ranger.

He was decorated. We were told he died in action in, rallying his buddies in a firefight, and was mourned by the 'administration' as a symbol of American sacrifice.

Then, the cover-up unravels to reveal Tillman died as the result of friendly fire -- a horrible mistake, a tragedy -- and it appeared the Army, the DoD, and the 'administration' had covered up the details.

Suddenly, Tillman was another kind of symbol. The circumstances of Tillman's death -- the result, apparently, of a fuck-up -- seemed a metaphor for the inept, bloody mismanagement of the war and everything else the 'administration' put it's hands on.

Now, depending upon the evidence, Tillman may end up symbolizing something else about the 'administration' s war: Rather than a hero whose life was wasted in a mistake, Tillman may have been the kind of gung-ho FNG that get other people killed -- and that the response of his squad- or platoonmates was to frag him.

That particular metaphor doesn't bode well for 'lil Boots' war.

Alguien wrote on July 27, 2007 11:07 AM:

Greg:
It looks like your state of mind has been permanently affected by serving in a war. It is very unfortunate that you had to go through all that. I truly feel your pain and frustration and empathize with you in your struggle.
However, let me see if I understand your point:
According to you, if Tillman was murdered and not killed in action or by friendly fire as initially asserted, we should accept it and move on because it has happened before and because there are more murders per year in the US?
A careful and deliberate cover-up by Pentagon officials should not be investigated just because it happens all the time during war?
Following the same logic:
There have been many corrupt politicians in US history so why should we expect honesty from our elected officials? Just let them get away without investigating because many others did it before!
There have also been many fraudulent elections all over the world, so why should we insist on counting all the votes and demanding transparency?
Simple answer: BECAUSE EVEN IF BAD THINGS HAPPEN ALL THE TIME, THEY ARE WRONG!

Bribes wrote on July 27, 2007 11:07 AM:

Ok,

First of all, I thought Rangers _are_ special forces. Second, the lack of enemy fire is probably because, according to the reports, one unit mistook another unit for the enemy. That means there'd be bullets flying, but it would all be "friendly" fire, instead of enemy fire. Third, the JAG officers might be congradulating each other because they a) didn't think there was a crime, b) they thought that a criminal prosecution would be completely politically motivated, and c) they didn't want a circus.

All that being said, this thing stinks to high heaven. All the evidence may have an explanation individually, but all of it together makes it much, much more suspicious. Add in the three bullet holes to the head in close proximity, for which there is rarely a good explanation, and you get a very disturbing picture.

bob wrote on July 27, 2007 11:10 AM:

April 26, 2004 Randy Crow wrote:

Rove having Pat Tillman murdered to stimulate patriotism is so evil and cowardly the world knows we are living in the time of the antiChrist Beast, Abominations of the Earth, Mother of Prostitutes and Little George is the antiChrist.

Bye, Greg.

bob wrote on July 27, 2007 11:10 AM:

April 26, 2004 Randy Crow wrote:

Rove having Pat Tillman murdered to stimulate patriotism is so evil and cowardly the world knows we are living in the time of the antiChrist Beast, Abominations of the Earth, Mother of Prostitutes and Little George is the antiChrist.

Bye, Greg.

greg wrote on July 27, 2007 11:11 AM:

if it was a black quarter back in the ghetto some were you life or this article would not happened!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11greg

Barringer wrote on July 27, 2007 11:11 AM:

I don't think that evidence of a cover-up constitutes evidence of murder. The army's initial propping up of Tillman as a hero blew up in their faces when it turned out he was killed by friendly fire and that his family wasn't up for having Pat used as a prop. That was embarrassing enough for the Army to want to hide it.

As for Bush being involved in the cover up, get serious. He has much bigger coversup to worry about.

molly wrote on July 27, 2007 11:12 AM:

Democracy Now on Link TV had a clip showing Pat Tillman's murder. He was out in the open yelling"Don't you know who I am?" You could tell he was surprised and it was not friendly fire. Why would there be a video in combat?

Soldier wrote on July 27, 2007 11:12 AM:

Tillman was not in a Special Forces unit.

Security Code: school. As in, you learned something today.

JEP wrote on July 27, 2007 11:14 AM:

exhibit A "In his last words moments before he was killed, Tillman snapped at a panicky comrade under fire to shut up and stop "sniveling."

exhibit B "medical examiners questioned the close proximity of three bullet holes in Tillman's forehead, fired from ten yards away.

exhibit C "The three holes are significant because the M16 has a three shot setting, so one American could have executed him at close range."

...anyone else think maybe it sounds like a GI tweaker snapped?

We know amphetamines fueled the fury on the road to Baghdad, it's one more dirty little secret that adds to the total travesty.

So who's protecting the shooter? And why?

greg wrote on July 27, 2007 11:20 AM:

if you fucks are so concerned ,go some were kill your self and go meet up with till the poster man and have a couple of beers and ask him what happened !!!!!!!!!!1greg

greg wrote on July 27, 2007 11:21 AM:

if you fucks are so concerned ,go some were kill your self and go meet up with till the poster man and have a couple of beers and ask him what happened !!!!!!!!!!1greg

AnneW wrote on July 27, 2007 11:22 AM:

"As for Bush being involved in the cover up, get serious. He has much bigger coversup to worry about."

I would think so, but Bush firmly inserted himself in this mess by claiming exec. priv. It begs the question why.

JEP wrote on July 27, 2007 11:22 AM:

speaking of GI tweakers that snapped...

Anonymous wrote on July 27, 2007 11:26 AM:

Please get the basic facts right.

Everyone should know Rangers are not Special Forces, which include far more than Green Berets, even if Rangers are in the Special Forces command these days.

And there was fire. There was friendly fire for goodness sake. I have not seen a version of this killing that did not involve friendly fire of a split up unit.

Embarrassing.

Slim Pickin's wrote on July 27, 2007 11:28 AM:

Folks I'm really sorry to tell you, but Jake D. is out sick today. Said something about eating a bad gas-station burrito on his way home from the "ManHole" last night.

Anyways, he's down with the IBS, and greg has taken over his dirty, crumb encrusted stool in front of the computer for the day.

carry on...

Steve5117 wrote on July 27, 2007 11:29 AM:

How about some guy in the outfit is such a right wing christian that he shoots Tillman because Pat didn't beleive in god so he was the enemy. The cover-up is over the military encouraging the christian-holy-war-over-islam mentality.

Fragging is not in the manual, neither are Code Reds nor directions to the mess hall.

Soldier wrote on July 27, 2007 11:29 AM:

It's Special "Operations" Command.

whatev wrote on July 27, 2007 11:29 AM:

If he wasn't well-liked within his unit and was fragged, [stop "sniveling"?!?] what does that have to do with his stance on Iraq? Soldiers under him wouldn't care about his politics on Iraq--why make this out to be more than it is?

Anonymous wrote on July 27, 2007 11:29 AM:

Greg:
You are experiencing "Blog rage".
Stop writing, have some Valium and seek some mental health treatment.
[Good luck in your dealings with the VA mental health care system...! For most veterans, that seems to be worse than the war...!]

Sully18 wrote on July 27, 2007 11:34 AM:

The problem,Greg,is that the public does not care.They`re all zoned out on bills,medical,retirement,and just "stuff."That`s why we`re there,because of our "stuff."That`s how these smart rich people get us to do their wars for them because we`re worried about "stuff," and that anxiety keeps us looking here looking there and looking everywhere for the answer to the question: "How and where do I get enough stuff to keep me and my family secure?" And we go round and round, doing things we hate,and I could go on and on,but what`s the point?
We need to start over and do what we believe in,not what our alleged leaders believe in.If soldiers said no to war,war would stop.Period.
Code word keep,as in Keep on Trucking for Peace.

foo wrote on July 27, 2007 11:36 AM:

Pity there is no super-caps-lock key so Greg can shout even louder. Perhaps I'll put in a reader request to Josh.

greg wrote on July 27, 2007 11:38 AM:

there is no rage ,no crying ,you lost a human life. life go's on. actually i'am a happy guy i have no ideal what happened but it did and your are crying but i can only take it for so long,then you and tillman got to go!!!!!!!!!! no big deal we are born we die,tell me somthing i don't know . if you want to know the tillman truth you will half to join him ,is that a bad ideal,tell me, and i said you mine as well have a few beers ,i could you fucks because your screwed and don't know it,that is the problem ,no rage no concern,its war like it or love it its war,greg

Rick B wrote on July 27, 2007 11:42 AM:

The real problem, beyond Pat Tillman's death, is that this administration has lied so much and so often that they can't be expected to be telling the truth if they say the sun comes up in the East. Who, besides a fool, trusts a known liar?

The story of PFC Lynch's heroics was an early lie from the war. Anyone who has read about abu Ghraib and knows the military is aware that it was an example of either a command level conspiracy to commit war crimes, or at the very best possible level of spin, it was a total failure of command and control right up to and including the Secretary of Defense.

This is no surprise, either. Every flag officer in the military was chosen by Don Rumsfeld for their ability to kiss ass. Our military no longer has any competent Generals or Admirals, just politicians and suck-ass careerists. And that's exactly what they all did when Tillman was murdered.

Three rounds in the forehead? That was no mistake, no friendly fire incident. Whoever killed Tillman was close enough to kiss him. The cover-up has all the characteristics of a cover-up conducted by flag officers. Too many people have been silenced in too many different places for anyone of lower rank to have done it. They shut down the unit itself and cut off contact with the outside world while they were getting their story straight, they burned Tillman's uniform and armor, and they somehow kept the medical question from triggering a real investigation. Then the CID investigation was shut down. The reach was outside the Special Operations Command. That says "Flag officer involvement."

So does the Silver Star for the victim of a friendly fire incident.

All the evidence that is now trickling out makes it clear that some kind of cover-up occurred. Then go back to my original statement.

This administration cannot be trusted. They are known serial liars. They lie with every out-breath, whether they need to or not.

The claim of Executive Privilege for something that should have been handled in Aghanistan and perhaps Fort Lewis is a dead giveaway. Whatever actually happened to Pat Tillman, it is very likely worse than anything we have seen speculated so far.

Anyone who trusts the idiots in charge right now is a fool. The question is not whether a crime occurred. The question is how many crimes and how bad they were.

JEP wrote on July 27, 2007 11:44 AM:

"I have not seen a version of this killing that did not involve friendly fire of a split up unit."

This "close proximity of three bullet holes in Tillman's forehead, fired from ten yards away." suggests it may have been very unfriendly Friendly fire...

Even at ten yards, a sharpshooter would have to be aiming quite deliberately to get that kind of group.

That is the issue. The evidence suggests not just friendly fire (which usually means a mistake, not a murder), but deliberate "friendly fire" which is an ironic oxymoron.

Also, didn't "Rangers" have the word "Airborne" in front of it in ages past?

To me, Tillman sounds like he was trying to forge some order out of a moment of chaos, and someone did not respect his authority (with deadly force).

Whether it was an Elias Vs. Barnes "Platoon" event, or just a disgruntled grunt in a pique of fury, Tilman's death came in an immeasurably short and merciful instant, but it may not have been at the hand of a comrade-in-error, or by an enemy at war, but from the rifle of a deranged and determined fellow soldier.

The implications are mind boggling...

And The Truth is an enigma, that many hope will escape us all.

greg wrote on July 27, 2007 11:45 AM:

CRY BABY CRY BABY WHY BABY WHY BABY DO YOU CRY ,THE G MAN

Jeff II wrote on July 27, 2007 11:46 AM:

Wasn't Tillman a Ranger, not Special Forces?
Posted by: Constantin Date: July 27, 2007 10:01 AM

Correct.

The point made upthread about Tillman's opposition to Iraq is immaterial as he was serving in Afghanistan.

Tillman wasn't likely killed for "political reasons." Nor is it likely he was "fragged" because he was a bit too gung ho. All Rangers are gung ho or they aren't Rangers.

The suggestion that his platoon or company had something to do with the opium trade is beginning to look a lot less fantastical.

greg wrote on July 27, 2007 11:52 AM:

this blog is the version of nightly news with katie couric were th world is perfect,like her ratings ,,greg

Agathena wrote on July 27, 2007 11:53 AM:

There's a logical reason for repeatedly claiming executive privilege and that is WRONG DOING.

People who have done nothing wrong are not afraid of the light of day.

Veritas78 wrote on July 27, 2007 11:54 AM:

Greg is why I'm not sure we should bring the troops home.

CBGB wrote on July 27, 2007 11:55 AM:

Pat Tillman was not the victim of friendly fire; he was murdered at point-blank range. Ask yourself, what happened after his death? If you recall, this country almost got completely swept away in a sea of flag-wavers. Military recruitment was way up and tons of young men and women eagerly rushed to Iraq or Afghanistan to “get ‘er done”. I agree with Mart (July 27, 2007 10:27 AM) Tillman’s penchant for quoting Chomsky and speaking out against this immoral/illegal war on Iraq, more than likely sealed his fate. Unfortunately, people within the Evil Bush Empire figured out how to get a twofer. Taking Pat out silenced a credible, high-profile critic and whipped this country into a jingoistic craze at the same time. As King George said, “Mission Accomplished!”

AnneW wrote on July 27, 2007 11:58 AM:

"Nor is it likely he was "fragged" because he was a bit too gung ho. All Rangers are gung ho or they aren't Rangers."

Though to be fair, Rangers by definition shouldn't be snivelling either as Tillman supposedly accused someone of doing....

JEP wrote on July 27, 2007 12:00 PM:

"The suggestion that his platoon or company had something to do with the opium trade is beginning to look a lot less fantastical."

Or a faction of that platoon?

That IS a Barnes/Elias conflict. Different mtives,same scenario.

The two sides are as simply defined as "good" vs "evil".

In the chaos and lawless violence of war, that corrupt and violent gang from "Lord of the Flies" forms-up, and then wants some bloody booty from their war...

versus the "boy scouts" and "world savers" who want to fight for something they believe in, and that is why they are there in the first place...

As I said, kudos to Oliver Stone for such a universal perspective, that IS the Elias/Barnes conflict from the movie Platoon.

greg wrote on July 27, 2007 12:00 PM:

bush you keep calling him evil empire,look on the back of his head and call me if you see the nubers 666 ,,,greg

bwindrip wrote on July 27, 2007 12:04 PM:

I think Tillman, an outspoken critic of the war, stumbled into something that others were afraid he would talk about. The triple tap to the forehead and the burned body armor have a really bad stink to them, and the "fog of war" would have to be awfully thick to obscure his friendly status over a distance of only ten yards.

Additionally, if the administration refuses to release all the pertinent information about Tillman's death, it's only fair to blame them for it.

two beers wrote on July 27, 2007 12:05 PM:

seems Karl has outsourced his trolls.

greg wrote on July 27, 2007 12:05 PM:

death before dishonor,,none of you folks no nothing greg

greg wrote on July 27, 2007 12:06 PM:

death before dishonor,,none of you folks no nothing greg

Chas wrote on July 27, 2007 12:10 PM:

foo:
Perhaps we can ask Josh for a spelling and grammar key for "Greg" as well? Imagine this sub-moron with a weapon!

greg wrote on July 27, 2007 12:11 PM:

any body have a recepie for pot roast ,,greg

BobbyV wrote on July 27, 2007 12:11 PM:

As it did with the Dept of Justice, this administration has politicized the professional officer corps. From the JCS down through the company level commanders, espousing the Right political viewpoint is the way to ensure glowing performance reports and quick promotions. It will take years to undo the damage inflicted by Bush and company.

bwindrip wrote on July 27, 2007 12:13 PM:

I had not heard the speculation about the possible opium connection before today.

The fact that I can even consider it possible is depressing.

Sacanagem wrote on July 27, 2007 12:14 PM:

Well gosh, the original poster mistakenly confused Rangers with Special Forces, so Pat Tillman's death was a complete accident, and the invasion of Iraq was completely justified.

Code word, "degree", as in six degrees of disinformation.

AnneW wrote on July 27, 2007 12:14 PM:

No Greg, you've dishonored your uniform by cheering on the death of a decorated war hero. He either deserved the Silver Star or he didn't. You don't even care if he was fragged so murder of your fellow soldiers is okay with you, too. Where's the honor?

I actually do give a damn about Tillman's death, and the death of my friend's son, and the lives of the others I know over there. I still manage to get choked up when I see the list of names they list nightly on the news. I also care when I see a murder happened in my town...the two things are not mutually exclusive.

Steve5117 wrote on July 27, 2007 12:15 PM:

You know folks, I think we have a new troll in greg. Now it is possible that it is really Jake D trying a new tactic.

You know how to treat trolls... ignore their idiotic rants.

Truth hurts wrote on July 27, 2007 12:17 PM:

Yeah, I did learn something today. Trolls will literally say anything to defend their pet war.

greg wrote on July 27, 2007 12:20 PM:

spelling on a blog has nothing to do with killing , you either a warrior or not ,like pregerant,schooling will not save your life in combat,greg

Kevinott wrote on July 27, 2007 12:21 PM:

god-damned main-stream media

Anonymous wrote on July 27, 2007 12:26 PM:

Sorry about adding to misinformation when it is Special Operations Command. The real point is that calling Rangers Special Forces is like calling community college students Doctor. There is a profession involved and for we civilians to be so ignorant of that profession and what it demands and requires is pathetic.

Friendly fire or fragging, the point is one part of a platoon was firing on another part of a platoon. (As I recall from stories, that was the size of the unit involved.) Or, there is yet another story for which there is absolutely no evidence to date.

The three closely spaced shots to the head and the burnt evidence are big deal facts---and always have been. The truth was covered up.

But making shit up doesn't help uncover the truth.

john doh! wrote on July 27, 2007 12:27 PM:

Tillman joined the Army to kill,PERIOD! Pat traded fame and fortune for the chance to kill people. Patriotism had nothing to do with Tillman in Afghanistan.

MW wrote on July 27, 2007 12:29 PM:

How can this matter be covered by executive privilege? It has nothing to do with advice given on our nation's security or whatever executive privilege is supposed to be. It would seem to be panicked covering of one's posterior.

MW

johnnydoughey wrote on July 27, 2007 12:30 PM:

In a democracy, discoveries such as this and the numerous other inconsistencies and possible illegal activities would have been dealt with according to long standing, well established rules of law and penalties consistent with the crime.

Here in the Animal Farm, the pigs are ALWAYS more equal. Those folks in power are no longer being subject to the same rules that we are, guys. We need to either get used to it or do something about it. So far, we apparently are deciding to keep the two mobs in power.
Once again the Gulf of Tonkin Incident did not occur and the President was a democrat. There were no weapons of mass destruction and the President is a Republican. Our defense budget is $400 billion and this occurs with both administrations.
Both parties continue to protect their members and continue to villify the other party.
Meanwhile, both mobs win and our democracy loses... IMHO

greg wrote on July 27, 2007 12:31 PM:

YOUR MAMA WAS A TROLL AND SHE WAS SO UGLY EVEN THE BRIDGE WOULD NOT TAKE HER,THE UNEMPLOYED BITCH,GREG

JEP wrote on July 27, 2007 12:35 PM:

I think Greg is Sully.., their commas are similarly mispalced quite sconsistently.

"we hate,and I" sully18

"no concern,its war like" greg

which one's the sock puppet?

codeword glove... LOL

CBGB wrote on July 27, 2007 12:37 PM:

Does anyone know how to report abusive comments directly to Josh?

JEP wrote on July 27, 2007 12:40 PM:

"UNEMPLOYED BITCH,GREG"

see what I mean?

Anonymous wrote on July 27, 2007 12:40 PM:

>I am willing to be more patient if I know that the >wheels are turning and that accountability will >happen.

That sentiment distills my hopes exactly.
securitycode = right

JEP wrote on July 27, 2007 12:41 PM:

"Yo Momma was a troll..."

a new classic!!!!

LOL707LOL707LOL

Steve5117 wrote on July 27, 2007 12:43 PM:

JEP if greg was ever in the military, he was probably discharged for gross stupidity.

greg wrote on July 27, 2007 12:43 PM:

spelling,,,,,, and all this doesn't mount to a hill of beans tillman is deaa by accident,and the truth is one of his comrades done it ,who!!!!! i ask,,, no one got to who did it,fuck the covering up,,,, who did it talk about who did and the mistake they made ,if it was a honest mistake that soldier will live with that the rest of his life that is punishment,,,,,,,,,,,,greg

MikeSinAZ wrote on July 27, 2007 12:43 PM:

Reduce his retirement pay by $900!?! This is a three-star general who has the diplomatic equivalency of the presidents chief-of-staff. With 25 or 30 years of service his retirment benefits will be more than most Americans work for year round, easily over $100,000/year with benefits.

How 'bout they REDUCE his retirement pay TO $900! That would be justice.

JEP wrote on July 27, 2007 12:47 PM:

Yo momma is a troll...

still laughing!!!

codeword mother, you kidders, you

greg wrote on July 27, 2007 12:47 PM:

what planet are you on a general does not make that money on retirement you fool greg

dbl06 wrote on July 27, 2007 12:48 PM:

Someone correct if I am wrong, but wasn't Tillman known as "Mad Dog" in the NFL? How many athletes or citizens of any ilk voluntary give up 3-4 mil a year to go fight? (No one was making that kind of money in WW II). Were the three bullets holes in the back of the head? When I was in ROTC there was guy in my squad that was "gung ho" beyond belief, but when he was out of uniform he seemed to be a fairly decent person. There seems to be an unwritten rule in the military that intimidation has consequences.

Apoli wrote on July 27, 2007 12:53 PM:

Maybe a mercy killing in the field by one of his fellow officers after being peppered by friendly fire from a distance, he begged for someone to put him out of his misery or something b/c of the severity of the original wounds etc....just a thought?

JEP wrote on July 27, 2007 12:53 PM:

"Yo mama was a troll,
and yo daddy was a geek,
and yo sister's doing time for hackin' Citibank

Well you shoulda got a job
instead of gettin' a computer,
well you're just a bunch of liberal online smarty-pants."

Viva la blogs!

greg wrote on July 27, 2007 12:55 PM:

a lot of stars in the movies quit there carrier in ww2 to fight for there country ,you know a lot about nothing ,like tillman ,i feel for his family his mom who is probably reading this but as i first stated there are no gurantes in war ,,,greg

AnneW wrote on July 27, 2007 12:57 PM:

Greg, go use the military retirement pay calculator at:

http://www.defenselink.mil/militarypay/retirement/calc/01_finalpay.html

Type in his grade and years of service, YOU might be the one that's suprised.

If he was an O-10 with 30 years of service, his retirement pay is $10,500 a month.

jw1 wrote on July 27, 2007 1:00 PM:

Actually JEP--

The one item that disturbs me among all the hyper-kinetic keystrokes-- is the fact that 'katie couric' was spelled correctly.

jw1

greg wrote on July 27, 2007 1:02 PM:

i'am surprised a general makes that much retried ,the president makekes a quater million working it don't seem right

greg wrote on July 27, 2007 1:05 PM:

catie

Bill McD wrote on July 27, 2007 1:07 PM:

BobbyV said:
As it did with the Dept of Justice, this administration has politicized the professional officer corps. From the JCS down through the company level commanders, espousing the Right political viewpoint is the way to ensure glowing performance reports and quick promotions. It will take years to undo the damage inflicted by Bush and company.

Sorry, this one cannot be laid at the feet of the Bush Administration. This is a product of the professional army itself. The officer corps promotes like-minded individuals who do things 'the army way', which reinforces their viewpoint. Also keep in mind that it is traditionally liberals and democrats who look for ways to reduce the size/pricetag of the military, which is seen by many in the military as an attack on their profession, their necessity, and in some cases, their ability to feed their family. Donald Rumsfeld was rather unpopular w/the pentagon before 9/11 for exactly that reason: he wanted to streamline the military, cut back on the 'needless' big-ticket items to focus on those systems the DoD would actually use.

That all changed w/the WTC attack and the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, but the rightward drift of the military officer corps has far less to do with the Bush 43 administration than it does with the fact that most of us don't join up. Of those who do, something like 50% of them are following in the footsteps of a parent. This breeds a strong disconnect between the way most Americans view the military, and the way the military views itself.

What's worse, it breeds as strong a disconnect between what the average American feels about their own position on the military, and how the military feels about those positions.

This, I admit, is not about Tillman's death whatsoever. But it is about the attitudes many of us on the left seem to espouse about the military. Sometimes, I have to wonder if we know what their job is. It's not 'nation building', it's not interdicting opium-traders, it's not even disaster-relief. These are uses we put them to, but they are uses that could be filled by others, if we invested as much in projection-capable civil engineering, police, or humanitarian forces. Instead, we use the military, because we invest so much in it, while always hoping our men and women never need to actually do their job.

Soldiers know what their job is: their job is to kill. They are good at their job, and they like being good at their job. It is not immoral to like being good at your job. It is not immoral to be good at your job. It is not immoral to risk your life by being willing and able to kill on behalf of those who are endangered.

We should never lose sight of that. We should never be unwilling to look that in the eye and say 'I pay someone to be willing to kill another man on my behalf'. If we want the military to not feel like liberals are the enemy, then the first thing we need to be willing to do is understand that they are our military, not the Red Cross, and not the police, not even the federal police. They are our killers. They are the men and women who go out and do the most heinous deed possible at our behest, and on our behalf, and they rightly take pride in their work. They willingly do the things that many of us imagine to be the stuff of nightmares to have on our consciences, that those Americans who would torture themselves over need not.

Honor them. And never, never think of them as anything less.

greg wrote on July 27, 2007 1:08 PM:

stop replying to my speches so i can off this computer i wasted three hours with you people greg code word fact

Soldier wrote on July 27, 2007 1:11 PM:

"Well gosh, the original poster mistakenly confused Rangers with Special Forces, so Pat Tillman's death was a complete accident, and the invasion of Iraq was completely justified."

I'm an Army veteran and a journalist.

Correcting a significant error of fact has what to do with justifying either?

Errors like these allow people to laugh off entire stories, reporters, positions...etc.

And regal disinterest in getting military matters right is one of the surest ways that both the left, and the media, manage to repel otherwise sympathetic servicepeople and veterans.

greg wrote on July 27, 2007 1:12 PM:

next time bobby b right a novel on the blog you idiot,,,,,,greg

jw1 wrote on July 27, 2007 1:12 PM:

But well worth the price of admission.

jw1

Soldier wrote on July 27, 2007 1:13 PM:

BillD,
Well said.

Drewsky wrote on July 27, 2007 1:35 PM:

Could not forensics determine the size, angle of penetration, distance (among other factors) of bullet(s) that hit him? Was not an autopsy performed? If not, why not? If so, how thorough is it? I rather doubt it would be a public document, but someone must have read it and understood it.

We really have no idea what happened.

Face = As in someone trying to help save our national...

CBGB wrote on July 27, 2007 1:39 PM:

Most liberals are not against the military, they are against the MISUSE of the military. I have nothing against rank and file soldiers because they do not make the decisions; they simply do what they are told. Unfortunately, they were told to invade Iraq, a sovereign country that did not pose a threat to us. Thousands of US soldiers and even more Iraqis lost their lives because of this debacle. I was against this war before it even began because I knew it was a drastic mistake. Those who opposed this war were not consulted or listened to when they spoke out. I do not take responsibility for this war because it is not of my doing. I lay the blame on the desk of the Commander-in-Chief, one George Dubya Bush!

jeffs wrote on July 27, 2007 1:42 PM:

Was this an assassination?

"But, according to the AP, medical examiners questioned the close proximity of three bullet holes in Tillman's forehead, fired from ten yards away."

_ No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene _ no one was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck._

_ The three-star general who kept the truth about Tillman's death from his family and the public told investigators some 70 times that he had a bad memory and couldn't recall details of his actions.

I don't mean a fragging of an unpopular comrade. That sounds like the usual demonization machine, and why would generals and army attorneys be involved in such a cover-up? I mean a political assassination of someone who'd undoubtedly hurt the administration's war effort.

Why would this not make sense?

_

Bill McD wrote on July 27, 2007 1:45 PM:

No, CBGB, most liberals aren't "against the military", but we often question the need for the high-cost programs, or look at ways to reduce the size of it, or question the need to use it in the face of any but the strongest provocations. That gets viewed by the military as 'anti-military'.

As I said, the more disturbing disconnection that I see is not the disconnect between how civilians see the military and how the military sees itself... but the disconnect between how civilians see their views on the military, and how the military sees those views.

BevD wrote on July 27, 2007 1:47 PM:

One possible way to solve this is to disinter the body and have an independent medical examiner do another autopsy.

Gramma Millie wrote on July 27, 2007 1:53 PM:

if it was a black quarter back in the ghetto some were you life or this article would not happened!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11greg

Posted by: greg
Date: July 27, 2007 11:11 AM

And here I thought we were going to make English the national language.

Fairfax wrote on July 27, 2007 1:54 PM:

I believe that Tillman's death was the result of fragging gone bad. Sound like it may be worse than that.

Rick B wrote on July 27, 2007 1:57 PM:

Greg,

A Lt. Gen (3 star) with over 30 years gets 75% of his base pay as retirement.
Base pay = $11,348.70 per month.
75% of that = $8,511.53 which is $102,138.30 per year.

A Maj. Gen (2 star) with gets:
Base Pay = $10,066.50 per month.
75% of that = $7,549.88 which is $90,598.50 per year.

The difference is $$961.65 per month

This is from the 2006 pay scales.

Considering the ranks, and using Excel Goal-seek, it looks like he retired at 28 years which would have given him 70% of his base pay as retirement. [It's 2.5% of base pay per year of service between 20 years and 30 years of service.]

But Greg, if you are ex-mil you knew that.

onoclea wrote on July 27, 2007 1:57 PM:

Does anyone recall the reports that his diary went missing after his death? I'd sure love to see what he'd written.

Mike B wrote on July 27, 2007 2:03 PM:

Bill McD, very well said. Also, those in the military are signing up to give their lives if necessary to accomplish a mission. There are few other jobs where that is part of job description.

Prefabfan wrote on July 27, 2007 2:08 PM:

A Few Good TillMen.

CBGB wrote on July 27, 2007 2:14 PM:

No, CBGB, most liberals aren't "against the military", but we often question the need for the high-cost programs, or look at ways to reduce the size of it, or question the need to use it in the face of any but the strongest provocations. That gets viewed by the military as 'anti-military'.
*******************************************
Bill McD, there's nothing wrong with questioning the obscene amount of money allocated for military spending. Any thinking person knows that if they spend that much money on “war toys” they would loathe letting them sit for many years unused. There’s but so many times you can polish the Ferrari before you can’t resist taking it out for a spin, even if you have to “create” an excuse to do so. Do you know what I mean? No doubt, I believe there is a need for military personnel and civilians to get a better understanding of each other’s views, but I won’t be bullied into backing off certain positions just because they may be viewed as “anti-military”. I will continue to ask questions, because after all, isn’t a lack of vigorous questioning one of the chief reasons we’re in this mess in the first place?!

Tempest wrote on July 27, 2007 2:15 PM:

3 shots to the forehead?
hmmmm
Well if it was an M4 (an M16 carbine) shooting 223mm high velocity bullets their wouldn't be much of a head left to examine for bullet holes. Or was he shot with a sidearm 9mm?
Something doesn't add up here.

hot karl rove wrote on July 27, 2007 2:17 PM:

Watch out for the likes of Greg, they will destroy the value of this board.

Editors, this joker needs to be banned. If you don't this message board will look like Yahoos, and none of us want that.

I seriously doubt Greg is a soldier. God help us if he is because he is a disgrace to the county and uniform.

mbbsdphil wrote on July 27, 2007 2:17 PM:

The issue is only partly whether a millionaire ex-pro footballer, who was apparently as skilled a soldier as he was a football player, was murdered. He was a straight arrow; he was against the war and didn't need his paycheck to pay the mortgage or the alimony. Someone in his unit could have lost it.

As bad as that is, the bigger issue is that the Pentagon and the White House covered it up - at the highest levels - and are still covering it up. Why?

Scott Horton did an excellent essay on the "first death" in war. It carries with it all the potent symbolism of nationalism and duty and purpose. A White House run by the dictates of its campaign adviser would not miss it. Tillman's death was apparently the first death, certainly of a nationally known figure who had volunteered and was in the trenches.

Pop quiz: Would Karl Rove elevate Tillman to Olympian status or would he admit that a "nobody" from his unit put three rounds into his forehead because he was drunk or angry or just went crazy? Five seconds.

Jamie wrote on July 27, 2007 2:17 PM:

I've been saying this for years: Pat Tillman was murdered because if he had been allowed to return to the States only to denounce Bush and his illegal war in Iraq in the months before the 2004 election they wouldn't have been able to steal enough votes to keep Bush in office.

Pat Tillman hated Bush, he hated the Iraq war, he read Noam Chompsky (and was supposed to meet with him when he got back from Afghanistan), he was an atheist, and he was planning on campaigning for John Kerry. Add all that together and you've got a grade-A political crisis lined up for the White House.

They figured it would be easier to fight him over there so they wouldn't have to fight him over here. He was murdered, and I'm absolutely ashamed of all you stupid fucks you couldn't see that all along.

Wake up, idiots.

mutt wrote on July 27, 2007 2:18 PM:

hey, Greg, you nitwit. Im a combat vet, too. Viet Nam. You sound like one of those clowns who short circuits & starts spinning around shootin sparks gabbling whenever someone says "Jane Fonda".
In OTHER words, you'll say ANYTHING, no matter how stupid, to avoid facin the facts.
Tilmans not a case of a dangerous officer or NCO gettin fragged in self defense. Im all for that, fine by me.
SOMETHING ELSE is behind this, & the stink of shit goes right up to the White House. And its just a small part of a whole, the likes of which this country has never seen.
Now, you want to squawk that more people get killed not wearing seatbelts, or more babies drown in 5 gallon bucxkets than have gotten killed in Iraq, fine.
But you are waaaaaay out of your league here. These folks aint idiots. Go on over to Free Republic or something- youll fit right in.
Code word: PLEASE

raw_war wrote on July 27, 2007 2:21 PM:

...the lunatics ARE running the asylum.

CBGB wrote on July 27, 2007 2:23 PM:

3 shots to the forehead?
hmmmm
Well if it was an M4 (an M16 carbine) shooting 223mm high velocity bullets their wouldn't be much of a head left to examine for bullet holes. Or was he shot with a sidearm 9mm?
Something doesn't add up here.

Posted by: Tempest
Date: July 27, 2007 2:15 PM
***********************************
If you watched his father, mother, and brother testify before congress some months ago, you would have heard them say his head was damn near blown off! I wasn't trying to be gross, I was just trying to state the reason why an exhumation (if he wasn't cremated) might not do any good. And yes onoclea, I also heard that his notepad was burned and/or missing (I can't remember which it was)...

bison wrote on July 27, 2007 2:24 PM:

first time on a blog here... very interesting.

i'm not anti-military, but as one who wrote before me stated, i am against the it's misuse.

i had the utmost respect for tillman's decision to serve. i do believe that he went with the best intentions... not merely "to kill" as someone else had suggested.

the question i have for all of you is this: why do you even bother to respond to greg? it is not his opposition to most in here that is troubling, rather it is his complete ineptitude in creating a reasonably cogent (or logical, for that matter) argument.

truth suffers when faith trumps fact. a severely impaired intellect doesn't help either.

bison

CBGB wrote on July 27, 2007 2:33 PM:

Posted by: bison
Date: July 27, 2007 2:24 PM
*******************************
Welcome bison! I totally agree.

hot karl rove wrote on July 27, 2007 2:35 PM:

Other comment, you have to be very close to get a 3 shot burst in a 4 inch group with a M4. This is a very deliberate shot, the control shot.

I am really sickened by this. Outrage, beyond that, SADNESS for Tillmans family and for what's left of the country.

Mcboo wrote on July 27, 2007 2:36 PM:

LOL Rick B -

Greg as ex-military? Perhaps ex-Webelo. The grammar, spelling and all of the outrageous ranting to apparently garner attention all suggest someone rather young. And even with all of the stories regarding the Army's new "creative" recruiting policies Greg strikes me as a real stretch as a candidate any way you slice it!

In regards to the entire Tillman affair I think it is a prime example of why telling the truth is always the best policy. Friendly fire, while tragic, does happen in combat. And while painful for the family, it can be dealt with honorably. A fellow soldier killing one of their own in an intentional manner is certainly much more difficult to deal with for the family and a stain for the branch. The honorably thing in these kinds of cases is to give the family and the fallen soldier justice. This sort of thing has happened in the past as well so I'm sure there is procedure and precedent for dealing with it. But when you lie what was once one problem becomes 50 of them. And the more people involved the bigger the whole mess becomes. But I suppose bureaucracies have never really been noted for behaving rationally very often, not even accidentally.

Tempest wrote on July 27, 2007 2:37 PM:

CBDG-I read a ways back on his fatal injury. Did his parents view the body-or just get the details from someone else? The army will tell the family if the body isn't viewable once they ship your remains back.
The Army doctors saw something that was suspicious-they actually saw Tillman's body. Something doesn't add up on the description of the fatal head wound.

Anonymous wrote on July 27, 2007 2:38 PM:

On some days the mission is to kill. Other days it is not. The mission is the job.

One problem ignored by the "left" is the increasingly popular belief of some that killing will always get the job done. Vietnam-was-lost-due-to-reluctance-to-kill etc. And, there is an increasingly popular belief that the military has a right to demand a killing mission, rather than a more frustrating mission.

But oftten times, especially in a war on terrorism, killing can guarantee mission failure. A professional doesn't dictate the mission. Those british soldiers stationed in Belfast over nasty decades weren't given the luxury of limiting their mission to killing. They were given a far more frustrating mission. Peacekeeping also requires deadly force.

Early in the war one of the most impressive things I saw (on tv of course) was an army unit confrontation with Shia outside a mosque. The senior officer acted to immediately control the situation. There were plenty of wound up armed men on edge. There was no killing. Instead there was superb professional discipline under life and death pressure by trained killers. That discipline merits respect.

gus wrote on July 27, 2007 2:39 PM:

greggy your ramblings would be hard to read even if the grammar and spelling were correct. As it is they're unreadable. It's called spell check. Look into it.

Soldier wrote on July 27, 2007 2:41 PM:

CBGB provides the perfect example for the antipathy. Intimations of inherent intellectual and moral superiority to military folks, and the haughty certainty that he understands, better than those who make a career out of it, what the military needs and how it should use it.

It's not the positions, or the questions, it's the tone. There are many other examples above: "GI tweaker", "Greg is why I'm not sure we should bring the troops home", etc.

CBGB wrote on July 27, 2007 2:42 PM:

Posted by: Tempest
Date: July 27, 2007 2:37 PM
****************************
Tempest, I'm not sure if his parents viewed the body because of the massive damage done to his head. I will try to find their congressional testimony in C-SPAN's archives.

raw_war wrote on July 27, 2007 2:44 PM:

What IS left of this country?

mbbsdphil wrote on July 27, 2007 2:45 PM:

The next Democratic president cannot say, a la Gerald Ford, "Let us put all this behind us." He or she just can't. The corruption is too widespread. It permeates the White House, the Justice Dept, the Pentagon, the NSA, the FBI, and almost every federal agency.

S/he must put together a Top Forty list of scandals and investigate them and document their findings and make as much of it public as possible - consistent with grand jury secrecy rules for those cases warranting prosecution.

This needs to be a campaign issue. Make it one.

mbbsdphil wrote on July 27, 2007 2:52 PM:

Please don't feed the Trolls. The AEI feeds and burps them every four hours. Thanks.

Anonymous wrote on July 27, 2007 2:57 PM:

Soldier:
I did my 4 years in the 1980's in the USAF and 26 years Federal Government service.
My Father did 24 years in the U.S. Army-2 tours in VietNam. Then 15 years as a Deputy Sheriff.
My late mother- as a German civilian was bombed, strafed (close enough to hear the spent cartridges from strafing aircraft overhead, land on the ground.)

Soldier- Go away. Go look for WMD's.

CBGB wrote on July 27, 2007 3:00 PM:

CBGB provides the perfect example for the antipathy. Intimations of inherent intellectual and moral superiority to military folks, and the haughty certainty that he understands, better than those who make a career out of it, what the military needs and how it should use it.
Posted by: Soldier
Date: July 27, 2007 2:41 PM
***************************************
Soldier, Sorry, but you are way off base, and yes, pun intended. I would kindly remind you that we are strangers. You do not know me or anything about my background, family or friends. So, I would ask you to please refrain from attaching labels to me. If you knew me, which you do not, you would know that I feel deeply for the soldiers and their families that’s why I did not want them to invade Iraq in the first place because I knew many of them and even more Iraqis would return home in body bags unnecessarily. I have not expressed antipathy for anyone or thing except George Bush and his quagmire. If you have a problem with something I’ve written, please point it out and I would be happy to clarify.

budfox wrote on July 27, 2007 3:05 PM:

Waxman's Committee: Rumsfeld, Abizaid & Myers invited to testify, but they won't? Cannot they be subpeoaned? (spell)

Brad wrote on July 27, 2007 3:08 PM:

Murder?

or, Assasination?

r€nato wrote on July 27, 2007 3:13 PM:

3 shots to the forehead?
hmmmm
Well if it was an M4 (an M16 carbine) shooting 223mm high velocity bullets their wouldn't be much of a head left to examine for bullet holes. Or was he shot with a sidearm 9mm?
Something doesn't add up here.

Posted by: Tempest

from what I understand, Tillman indeed did not have much left of his skull...

security code: fear....

Anonymous wrote on July 27, 2007 3:38 PM:

Josh has to do something to keep the trolls out without stifling honest debate. I confess I don't know exactly how to do that except perhaps to hire a moderator.
Others have suggested that our troll seems to be a kid and not a combat vet. More like a juvee freeper instead trying to be cute and clever with the adults.

Couple of years back I watched -- of all things -- a NY Times forum become monopolized by freepers and wingnuttery. Have not been back since.

Must be a kind of Gresham's law: Wingers drive out rationals and those capable of moderate and thoughtful discussion.

Sisyphus

jeffs wrote on July 27, 2007 4:24 PM:

It is a variant of Gresham's Law, except that instead of being driven out, non-trolls can ignore the worst of the idiots, and it doesn't take long to figure out and ignore the misdirection from the 'reasonable' idiots.

Joe wrote on July 27, 2007 4:41 PM:

ALL OF THOSE OFFICERS ARE A DISGRACE TO THEIR UNIFORM AND TO THEIR COUNTRY. They should all be dishonorable discharged and their pensions cancelled. The JAG lawyers should all be disbarred.

Bill McD wrote on July 27, 2007 4:53 PM:

CBGB:

First, sorry about the delay on the reply, got caught up in life offline. (it's there! I saw it! I was shocked, too!)

"there's nothing wrong with questioning the obscene amount of money allocated for military spending."

No, there isn't. Just like there's nothing wrong with questioning anything. We should all, always, challenge ourselves and one another to think through our positions. :)

"Any thinking person knows that if they spend that much money on “war toys” they would loathe letting them sit for many years unused. There’s but so many times you can polish the Ferrari before you can’t resist taking it out for a spin, even if you have to “create” an excuse to do so."

This, I think, is more endemic of the civilian leadership than the military itself. Politicians like to show there's a reason for the expense. The military usually doesn't need to show it, they understand it already. It's worth noting that the politicians most eager and supportive of this war have tended to be the ones who never served. There are, of course, exceptions such as McCain, but let's face it, Senator John McCain is not the one who speaks on the Iraq war. Naval Aviator John McCain is. His ordeal left deep scars in his psyche, and I think that ordeal is what leads him to the irrational reactions he has on the war now. He was put through hell, and so he's reacting by, in his mind, doing whatever he feels he can do to try to provide the strength needed to protect the soldiers in danger. I don't agree with his methods or his judgements, but it's worth noting that his reactions bear less resemblance to his normal modus operandi than they do to a trauma victim's irrational attempts to keep others from being hurt as they were.

"Do you know what I mean? No doubt, I believe there is a need for military personnel and civilians to get a better understanding of each other’s views, but I won’t be bullied into backing off certain positions just because they may be viewed as “anti-military”. I will continue to ask questions, because after all, isn’t a lack of vigorous questioning one of the chief reasons we’re in this mess in the first place?!"

No one's saying you should. What I'm saying is that we need to do more than have these positions, we need to understand how others, who do not have these positions, are affected and how they will perceive them, and how they will react accordingly.

In effect, I'm saying that we need to do the due diligence to take into account the same ramifications, fallout, and blowback potential for our positions when dealing with our own military... as we excoriate the administration for not not doing regarding their intent and policies with regard to the people of Iraq and the Middle East.

We can't say 'They needed to think about ALL the consequences of their actions, and not just the ones they like' while not doing it ourselves. We need to understand that the people who are negatively affected by our position and policies will not instinctively grasp the rightness of them.

We need to engage, and talk, and not just insist that we are right because we're Left. Someone has to be the adults here, after all.

Re: (the empty space poster who talked about belfast and confrontations w/the Shia outside the mosque):

As I said, we call upon the military to perform missions involving civil engineering, police, and humanitarian functions. But those missions are ancillary. They are what we use them for, but they are not the central, core purpose of why we have a military, why the military exists, and what, as any infantryman will tell you, is the very basic tenet of their job. And that is: Kill the enemy.

Policemen perform police functions. Engineers, architects, and construction workers do civil engineering jobs. Everyone who can and who is willing performs humanitarian work when called upon. The military is our projection-capable strength, and so is called upon to take up many roles... but what sets them apart from simply a deployable group of FBI agents with construction experience is that their first, central function is to keep us safe through death, the bad guy's when possible, their own when necessary.

siri wrote on July 27, 2007 5:14 PM:

YOO HAA! Mark Klein. Your post says it all for me.

IMPEACH
INVESTIGATE
INICT
IMPRISON
IMPALE! THE ENTIRE BU$H CABAL

siri@legitgov.org
www.legitgov.org

Little Dickie Flatto wrote on July 27, 2007 5:23 PM:

Way back it was reported that Tillman's clothing and ALL other personal 'effects' (including maybe a diary?) were COMPLETELY DESTROYED, by incineration, on the day following his death. Normally those items would have been carefully collected, packaged, and delivered to his 'next of kin' by military personnel.

That's all I needed to know about the nature and background of his demise that a criminal investigation was necessary.

Why has NO HOUSE OR SENATE COMMITTEE in the Democrat-controlled Congress already jumped on and started investigating the flagrant red flag presented by events surroundin g Tillman's death??? They have had 7+ months.

Anonymous wrote on July 27, 2007 5:23 PM:

"Impeachment is not going to happen"

Enough! As long as we all reconcile ourselves to the impossibility of impeachment, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Impeachment MUST be on the table, always, as a deterrent to continued criminality -- even if not as punishment for past misdeeds. Taking it off the table, deeming it a "waste of time," or discounting the possibility of conviction sanctions bad behavior and perverts the rule of law.

If you know O.J. did it but you don't think you can convict him, do you just not try the case or, worse, promise you never will?

Much wrote on July 27, 2007 5:28 PM:

Move on.
Frag happens in war.

mike wrote on July 27, 2007 5:32 PM:

As soon as I heard the news about the three shots to the forehead at 10 yards, I thought, that sounds very deliberate--murder. How difficult is it to place a small group of shots like that? Wouldn't the first shot knock him over or down almost instantly? If he was already down, I can see it being an easier shot, but probably with a sidearm, not M16.

Drewsky wrote on July 27, 2007 5:32 PM:

My condolences to Pat's family and friends.
I don't care if it was friendly fire or not in this regard - a life was lost, and people were hurt.
Fuck the war. These fucks never gave our troops the tools they needed to do the job right in the first place. I cannot count one correct thing that has been done in the last 6 plus years - in any military or political arena. Period! The list of Fuckups grows by day, and is being compounded daily.
It is going to take the rest of our lifetime to see this crap corrected, if we ever do.

Poppy production on Afganistan: 7 tons 2001, something like 596 tons 2007 (5 times WORLD supply in 2001). Bin Laden is still out there.
I think Iraq was always a mistake. Still do.

SPENCER wrote on July 27, 2007 5:40 PM:

THIS is the executive privilege case that Congress should follow to the Supremes, more than any other.
This case boils the blood of both sides simply because they tried to hide the truth, not because of the incident itself; what the WH is hiding is the PR Jessica Lynch hype that they were going to put in that WH Correspondence speech.

I think this case would get bipartisan support.

By the way, how would you fast track this case to the Supremes, like the Nixon tapes case?

wendy wrote on July 27, 2007 6:01 PM:

Raymond Shaw is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life.

osama_been_forgotten wrote on July 27, 2007 6:02 PM:

Three rounds to the forehead at close range is not a murder.

Its an execution.

Anonymous wrote on July 27, 2007 6:24 PM:

Re: Bill McD

A military that cannot successfuly engage in the death business is admittedly a waste of money. But the mission demanded of the American military since WWII has not been primarily the death business. Nor is it now.

This is a serious disagreement only to the extent that the claim is accepted that the military should not, for example, be bogged down in peace keeping, as something that dimishes its effectiveness, and is not its proper role. The military's proper role is always to complete its mission with good order and discipline.

The American military has an excellent history of being apolitical that is under attack now. Part of that attack is that the military can demand the missions and terms it will accept as it is better than mere politicians.

"Liberals" are of little help in defending the military from this attack because they have little respect for or appreciation of the profession.

That problem shows up in the Pat Tillman cover up when there is so much misunderstanding of and disdain for the profession is shown. Yet the military profession is probably the first liberal art.

osama_been_forgotten wrote on July 27, 2007 6:30 PM:

The M16 has an auto setting for a 3-round burst - to prevent situations where a guy gets shot, his hand clenches on the trigger, and he takes out his whole platoon.

To get a grouping that tight in burst-mode, one must be aiming very deliberately, and holding the weapon very firmly (or bracing it against something solid). Otherwise, the recoil makes the weapon jiggle around, and the rounds would not impact that closely together.

Anonymous wrote on July 27, 2007 6:42 PM:

From all the General's willing to risk career's to 'BUSH LOYALISTS' like Meirs and Gonzo willing to risk jail from perjury and any other flaunting of our laws. You begin to wonder if they know what is coming and we don't.
Why would the greatest political strategist ever, that being Rove, allow Bush's unpopularity to drag down the Republican Party, even costing them the midterm election, to continue to the current and continued nose dive? Obviously they do not care because they are going to reward all loyalists with plumb position's in the new REICH after they take over the USA via executive privilege to end elections in 2008.
The one thing that would be just would be the NEW LEADER'S purging via THE NIGHT OF THE LONG KNIVES style of the christian right wings support that helped get Bush in this position.

Bill McD wrote on July 27, 2007 7:05 PM:

Going by times here, because neither has a name, but I suspect they're different people...

6:24pm:

I have not now, nor will I ever say that the military should not involve itself in peacekeeping. The military is our projection-capable strength, and has been, will continue to be, and *should* be used as such. We invest quite a lot in making them mission-capable for a very broad range of missions.

Over 90% of the officer corps believes very strongly that the military should be, and must remain, under the control of the civilian beureaucracy. That the military trends rightward in their own political leanings is neither surprising, given the general attitudes of politicians from each party since Vietnam, nor particularly dangerous, given the firm belief that they are, and need to be, servants of the civilian government, not its keepers.

What is dangerous is the disconnect in our opinions OF our opinions, and their opinions of our opinions. As long as we feel that our rightness is self-evident and beyond reproach... then it is nothing but arrogance to those who do not agree, but who might if we stopped to talk with them about why we feel as we do.

6:42pm:

a)Rove is not the greatest political strategist ever. He's a smart, cynical bastid who read the tea leaves and recognized that the media would, for a time at least, embrace a 'folksy' politician after seeing the generally distant way they'd sneered at Gore for 8 years prior to the 2000 election.

b)Meirs and Gonzales are running out the clock. There is nothing Congress can do to them that holds any credible threat in the face of the President's ability to pardon them (and Scooter).

Believe me when I say that all of the current military personnel I know, from non-coms and grunts to officers, would resolutely oppose any attempts to stage a coup from above.

As far as the 'night of the long knives' from the Christian right-wing... the most heavily armed people I know, short of my cousin's air defense missile artillery unit... are liberals. And pagans.

chuckie wrote on July 27, 2007 7:05 PM:

Sounds like Tillman was a real asshole.

BroD wrote on July 27, 2007 7:36 PM:

Not sure what to make of this contradiction:

"Tillman snapped at a panicky comrade under fire"

"No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene"

except that there appears to be a contradiction.

Bill McD wrote on July 27, 2007 9:16 PM:

Unless you take into account the split team and that Tillman's group might've been taking friendly fire. Which still doesn't mean one of the guys in his immediate element didn't snap and shoot him. Or take advantage of the confusion.

kevin p wrote on July 27, 2007 9:22 PM:

has anyone read the sports illustrated article about this, one of the best stories ever told...

kevin p wrote on July 27, 2007 9:23 PM:

has anyone read the sports illustrated article about this, one of the best stories ever told...

Al in Austex wrote on July 27, 2007 9:51 PM:

Bill McDill,
I have never served in the military - but I have many friends who have,and they say Pat Tillman's death was a cover up of some sort . I know the military members in my circle of friends would never countenance a coup -especially by the NEO Cons.
But I am more then a little worried about Blackwater. Titan , et al and how BushCo might try to deploy them -after suspending all of our rights in a prefab national emergency.
What do you and Soldier , and any other military members ( former or current )think about the potential threat from a combined arms private militia operating right here in CONUS ,at the behest of Bushco (recall they were used in Katrina security by HSD )- how concerned should we be ?
And Mr.Mc Dill you are right about about the liberals ,pagans , and in my case live & let live Methodist -we are heavily armed & completely willing to defend ourselves against any right wing Christian Putsche-
Can any one verify that the leadership of some of these "contractors " are really Christian Dominionist (sp)?

donrait wrote on July 27, 2007 10:12 PM:

I was a "take-charge" Officer in combat for 3/4, I never worried about my back, I worried about my front. This is so much shit about "it happens all the time", it didn't and doesn't. Those who talk so much about combat, know very little of which they speak. Is there friendly fire? Sure. 99% of it is arty or mortars or poorly controlled close air support. Tillmans' "tight group" on his forehead does give pause. It always scares me when the Army gives out medals. I saw the documentation for an Army Reserve Captain who was "given" SEVEN Silver Stars. What did you do I asked, nothing much, the Bn. had a full-time award writer. The Col. wanted the most decorated outfit in the Army. Semper Fi

Appalled wrote on July 27, 2007 10:36 PM:

So it is possible that the POTUS is an accessory to murder? How many others in the West Wing? How do they get executive privilege on THAT? Seems to me he'd be wanting to clear himself rather quickly - if he could. Seems to me we have to assume he can't and ask for a Special Prosecutor to pursue it.

Security code: profit, as in follow the money or the get out of jail card

Anonymous wrote on July 27, 2007 11:05 PM:

donrait

Thank you for the reality check.
I served in the Army without getting shot at and I have an enormous respect for those of you who have been there, done that.
Thanks again.

Robert wrote on July 27, 2007 11:25 PM:

Whoever Greg is, someone give him (1) a valium, and (2) an education.

slb wrote on July 27, 2007 11:41 PM:

>> This kid needs to get a girlfriend and a life. <<

And a dictionary.

myshadow wrote on July 27, 2007 11:45 PM:

The guy who was 'sniveling' was some guilty accomplice who knew what all the 'firing' was really about. He was close to a soon to be murdered comrade...I really never believed those guys regarded bloody clothes as 'biohazard' they be folded for his mother to see and dispose as she would please. The evil cynicism of bushco stumbled into what I think they later discovered was a fragging was too late they are attached to this like ticks.

security code....spade

cd wrote on July 27, 2007 11:50 PM:

Firing squad of four, one rifle having a blank. Mutiny against a direct order,,, threatening the safety of the men and the success of the mission,,, desertion in the face of the enemy,,, dereliction of duty,,, actions corrupting the morale and fighting efficiency of the men entrusted to your command,,,, escaping arrest and recaptured after hot pursuit, breaking his bond as an officer and a gentleman,,, trial before the mast,,, summary judgment,,, actions required to re-establish discipline,,, ranking officer-in-charge with an uncle in high office,,, [perhaps a bit dramatic, but defensible by generations of officerhood.]

JusticeForall wrote on July 28, 2007 12:06 AM:

I get so frustrated when I hear people refer to "the left" not "being supportive" of the troops. First off, it isn't true in the slightest. Just watched the vote today on the floor and ALL who voted AGAINST OUR TROOPS and AGAINST mandated leave instead of these extended tour and outrageous repeat redeployments were from the RIGHT not the LEFT. Same thing with troop pay increases, same thing with getting the funds out to the soldiers coming home wounded physically and mentally, across the board REPUBLICANS VOTE AGAINST OUR TROOPS.SO DOES BUSH.
By "The left" I suppose you mean "liberals" (another overbroad term)voted consistently FOR THE TROOPS. The fight "the left" has is against BAD POLICY THAT PUTS TROOPS IN HARMS WAY WITH A POORLY DEFINED MISSION. When it comes to the TROOPS and getting them what they need, seeing to it that they are treated with all the dignity and SERVICES they deserve, that goes hands down to the LEFT.
Our troops DESERVE LEADERSHIP and not a Commander in Chief who simply fires Generals who won't lie to him and bulls ahead full speed with NO legitimate, defined objective, not caring about the troops, no "plan B" when clearly Plan A is failing.
Blaming "the left" is a talking point but it is not based in truth.

jimbo92107 wrote on July 28, 2007 12:10 AM:

War is all about lying. That's why it's so important to stay out of them, they tend to corrupt everything around them.

In the case of BushCo, the regime was already corrupt, and now it has become even more so.

Let's impeach the fuckers.

JNagarya wrote on July 28, 2007 1:44 AM:

"That's called murder. And they knew it. That's why the White House is claiming executive privilege on those documents. And like everything else,they'll just run out the clock."

You're so rare and precious! We need people who can predict the unknowable future.

Your fashionable cynicism is counter-productive -- and threatens to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Instead of affirming -- in effect defending -- the stonewalling, why not instead demand answers?

Posted by: Palolo lolo
Date: July 27, 2007 9:22 AM

kat wrote on July 28, 2007 2:47 AM:

greg,

You really should listen to your friends and family and start taking the doctor's advice. If you're proscribed meds, take them. Or if you're supposed to be getting counseling and changing your routine, stick to it.

You're just shaming yourself worse with this behavior.

stephen miller wrote on July 28, 2007 2:57 AM:

>

He had arranged to meet Noam C