Comments (108)

adilla wrote on April 19, 2007 9:34 AM:

It may be best to watch it at CSPAN's website.

Direct link:

http://www.c-span.org/watch/cs_cspan3_wm.asp?Cat=TV&Code=CS3

anon wrote on April 19, 2007 9:34 AM:

Are you ready for some football? Yeehaw!

adilla wrote on April 19, 2007 9:35 AM:

It may be best to watch it at CSPAN's website.

Direct link:

http://www.c-span.org/watch/cs_cspan3_wm.asp?Cat=TV&Code=CS3

GO wrote on April 19, 2007 9:37 AM:

I heart Leahy!

Candyce wrote on April 19, 2007 9:43 AM:

I like what I'm hearing from Leahy! Really tearing right in from the git go.

Undercut confidence in our United States attorneys...developed torture....undermined public confidence in the rule of law...

cfaller96 wrote on April 19, 2007 9:45 AM:

Leahy is pissed. As usual. He went well beyond the US Attorney issue, he just listed off all the bad things that Alberto Gonzales is responsible for. He's just mad as hell and he's not going to take it any more.

Odbasta wrote on April 19, 2007 9:50 AM:

Anyone know any other video streams other than Cspan?

Michael Stevens wrote on April 19, 2007 9:51 AM:

It's also running on C-span 1. (for those who don't have c-span 3)

I suspect C-span 3 coverage of the hearing will be continuous, while c-span 1 coverage will cut in and out.

The way these opening remarks are going, it will be 10:15 before any real questions start.

Arkansan wrote on April 19, 2007 9:54 AM:

Schumer:

If the AG can’t remember basic facts about recent events, how can he be trusted to run the department?

He’s going through all the fake answers and notifying the AG that they will be unacceptable.

Presidential Pleasure!! He’s telling Gonzo that repetition of that answer is unacceptable.

Keep it up!!!

Racer X wrote on April 19, 2007 9:55 AM:

NEED MORE POPCORN!

ccinnc wrote on April 19, 2007 9:56 AM:

Here's another webcast:

http://judiciary.senate.gov/hearing.cfm?id=2632

Michael Stevens wrote on April 19, 2007 9:56 AM:

Odbasta,

Washingtonpost.com is also running live video. (link available at the front page of the site)

C-span.org has both real media and windows media feeds. The Washington Post has a Flash video feed (like youtube).

Go wrote on April 19, 2007 9:56 AM:

Just a ittle foreplay before they actually get down with the get down.

uncle vester wrote on April 19, 2007 9:58 AM:

and the oath is administered...

let the fun begin.

uncle vester wrote on April 19, 2007 9:59 AM:

first code "butter"

now it's "blood"

Anonymous wrote on April 19, 2007 10:00 AM:

Gonzo:

Exhumes the memory of the dead children at VT for opening remark sympathy points.

Proves he’s still lower than a snake’s belly.

Apologizes to the eight, accepts full responsibility. Doesn’t like the attacks on his integrity, they are very painful. Should have been more precise, always sought the truth…

Michael Stevens wrote on April 19, 2007 10:00 AM:

Slate has a reasonably good list featuring 32 questions they feel the Senators should ask.

http://www.slate.com/id/2164307/nav/tap1/

KC wrote on April 19, 2007 10:01 AM:

Nice to have some Dem oversight. Remember previous hearings when former Chairman Specter argued vehemently that there was no reason to have Gonzales sworn in?

Hell--they should hook him up to a polygraph.

Arkansan wrote on April 19, 2007 10:03 AM:

Gonzo just said they serve at the pleasure of the president.

Guess he didn’t hear Schumer’s opening remarks.

AHHHHHHH. He's reviewed "the documents available to the congress." Not all the documents, not his memory, he’s reviewed only what they know about. And based on that he still believes he’s done the right thing.

MB wrote on April 19, 2007 10:03 AM:

This is truly nauseating.

dbf wrote on April 19, 2007 10:04 AM:

now the first question - Gonzales and Karl Rove!

and Alberto recalls the conversation!

El Borba wrote on April 19, 2007 10:04 AM:

“I never sought to mislead the Congress or the American people.”

I guess that is an admission of abject incompetence!

First question, here we go.

Code: “sleep”, as in what the GOP hopes most of the US populace is doing this morning.

DBH wrote on April 19, 2007 10:07 AM:

Squirm baby squirm!

Michael Stevens wrote on April 19, 2007 10:07 AM:

There's also a live audio feed at www.npr.org

notheory wrote on April 19, 2007 10:08 AM:

Oh whatever Vester. Leahy opened with a statement about VT as well. There's more than enough to hang Gonzales on, there's no need to fabricate specious reasons to loathe the man.

Elisa wrote on April 19, 2007 10:10 AM:

Pacific is carrying the hearings live. WNYC.org is carrying the hearings on the AM station.

CarolSoprano wrote on April 19, 2007 10:10 AM:

Hoo, boy, Gonzo's squirming already. Leahy is coming out hard from the gate. He's stuttering, he's hemming & hawing, and he looks very uncomfortable. This is gonna be good!

uncle vester wrote on April 19, 2007 10:11 AM:

notheory,

I think you're confusing me with someone else- I didn't post that

KC wrote on April 19, 2007 10:12 AM:

Gonzo drinking game:

Every time he says "my recollection", drink.

Every time he says "I had limited involvement", drink.

Every time he says "I was not responsible", drink.

Every time he says "I'll have to get back to you", finish your drink.

CarolSoprano wrote on April 19, 2007 10:13 AM:

Wow, Gonzo's getting testy - that's not going to go over well with the Committee at all. Of course, he brings up Pat Fitzgerald - that's also not going to go over well.

Security Code - attack (pretty funny!)

dbf wrote on April 19, 2007 10:13 AM:

Alberto just admitted he doesn't know how much time his associate Attorney General (and Montana USA) actually spends in Montana.

Ooooops!

CarolSoprano wrote on April 19, 2007 10:14 AM:

KC, I'll be drunk by 10:30!!!

uncle vester wrote on April 19, 2007 10:15 AM:

I prepare for ALL my hearings, dammit!

notheory wrote on April 19, 2007 10:16 AM:

Vester:

Yes my apologies. I didn't realize the poster's name is a footer and not a header. Please redirect my criticism to the anonymous coward below you.

Again, very sorry!

lettuce wrote on April 19, 2007 10:16 AM:

Oh, Arlen. You have your "objective senator" face on at the moment. It's like halloween. It must be fun to dress up like that.

Candid my ass.

CarolSoprano wrote on April 19, 2007 10:16 AM:

OK - I have to say that Gonzo is really, really taking the wrong tack here - being belligerent and oppositional is going to piss off everybody, including the Republicans - Specter is not happy. Good - keep going, Gonzo - keep digging yourself in deeper and deeper.

uncle vester wrote on April 19, 2007 10:17 AM:

notheory,

No harm, no foul :-)

DF wrote on April 19, 2007 10:17 AM:

Specter is pissed too.

boonelsj wrote on April 19, 2007 10:17 AM:

He pissed Specter off with that smartass remark about always preparing. Hilarious.

Michael Stevens wrote on April 19, 2007 10:19 AM:

Specter is hanging him out to dry.

As I said yesterday, few Senators of either party are going to use an ounce of their own political capital to save a dead man walking.

It seems pretty clear that the Republican Senators have made their decision, he's finally gone.

Anonymous wrote on April 19, 2007 10:19 AM:

Specter complains that Gonzo appears not to be candid in his opening statement.

Specter blows so much smoke.

Specter: "I'd like you to win this debate. "READ:"Give me a crumb to justify my final vote. Anything, anything, I’m desperate here. You can do it dude."

LOL:

Specter just said, “let me go on because I want to feed you…, er I mean tell you.”

Specter is desperate and it shows.

Another snake in the pit.

KC wrote on April 19, 2007 10:21 AM:

Shorter Gonzo: I really haven't been the Attorney General.

Michael Stevens wrote on April 19, 2007 10:22 AM:

Naw, specter isn't desperate. He doesn't give a sh|t about Gonzo.

Specter has judged the way the wind is blowing and has decided to pile on. Look for some more Republicans to join the fray.

It's Gonzo Wacking day.

uncle vester wrote on April 19, 2007 10:23 AM:

"I now understand there was a conversation between me and the president"

WTF?

Daniel wrote on April 19, 2007 10:24 AM:

"I now understand that there was a conversation between myself and the President."

He says this as if it was suddenly revealed to him, and that he had never had any knowledge at any point prior...

Anonymous wrote on April 19, 2007 10:24 AM:

Gonzales keeps saying that Sampson was going to deliver a "concensus recommendation" from the Department on who to fire.

Yet Sampson repeatedly testified he was only the "keeper of the list." He wasn't making a recommendation.

Robin wrote on April 19, 2007 10:24 AM:

This is beautiful.

At the very, very, very LEAST... at least one of the bush goons is having at LEAST one bad day. And Gonzales is having a bad day (and we're only 1/2 hr into it).

so many of them belong in jail. But if that isn't going to happen, AT LEAST a goon is having a bad day.

Loving Abu's body language -- can he cross his arms over his body any more than he is???

KC wrote on April 19, 2007 10:24 AM:

Gonzo dictionary:

"limited involvement" = anything short of 24/7 undivided attention

Mr.Murder wrote on April 19, 2007 10:25 AM:

There is a Bush appointment at OPM who screens Senior staff applicants. The man's family has a lot of lobby ties to the Interior.

Can Waxman perhaps talk to Mr.Riddle and determine to which his applicant training program politicizes or shapes hiring for the transition to promotions?

foggylady wrote on April 19, 2007 10:25 AM:

Interesting memory..he remembers talking to Rove, and the subject, but not where, or of in person or phone,
Oh..and just now " I was aware of a conversation w/ The President".

Sspecter is not a happy man...and Gonzales is getting testy already, esp. if he is moved off script.

notheory wrote on April 19, 2007 10:30 AM:

God, Gonzales just admitted that the Senate knows more about the motivations and reasoning of "Senior Justice Department Staff" than he, the Attorney General, does.

KC wrote on April 19, 2007 10:31 AM:

Gonzo general statement: "I take full responsibility."

Gonzo under questioning: "Kyle did it."

psyopswatcher wrote on April 19, 2007 10:32 AM:

Specter: Was he involved or not? -Leadership issue

Was it a limited involvement? -Leadership issues

Gonzo: Putting it in context, [he] considers it a limited involvement in Sampson's ongoing process.
...

Pretty much damned if he do and damned if he don't. And no amount of equivocation is going to get him past this committee.

Anonymous wrote on April 19, 2007 10:32 AM:

That’s right. Sampson swore he made no decisions, he simply assembled the information. Gonzo swears he only relied on Sampson’s judgment. Unbelievable.

Kennedy is doing a great job too.

Gonzo says he stands by his decision, but Gonzo says he had no information upon which to base his decision, Huh?

KC wrote on April 19, 2007 10:36 AM:

How long before Orrin Hatch starts? That'll be a great time for a bathroom break.

Anonymous wrote on April 19, 2007 10:37 AM:

They think Lam is the most justified firing. He keeps harping on it.

The question to ask him is when Lam was notified of these concerns, and by whom?

Daniel wrote on April 19, 2007 10:37 AM:

Ugh, Brownback is just going to be a series of teed up questions.

Anonymous wrote on April 19, 2007 10:37 AM:

They think Lam is the most justified firing. He keeps harping on it.

The question to ask him is when Lam was notified of these concerns, and by whom?

Anonymous wrote on April 19, 2007 10:38 AM:

They think Lam is the most justified firing. He keeps harping on it.

The question to ask him is when Lam was notified of these concerns, and by whom?

KC wrote on April 19, 2007 10:38 AM:

F'ing Kyle.

El Borba wrote on April 19, 2007 10:40 AM:

Compartmentalization at its finest.

Let’s see:

I was aware that my chief of staff was building a consensus firing list
When receiving a complaint about a US-A I focus on the complaint
Yes, I take full responsibility for everything (each item in its proper box)
I fired those attorneys, who serve at the beck and call of the king
When I am hit by a raindrop, I concentrate on the rain

I fear we’re not going to get any coherent picture of anything today.

Code: “body”, as in what’s left over after the mind is gone

Daniel wrote on April 19, 2007 10:40 AM:

Gonzales criticizing for poor judgment in pushing a death penalty case? That's just comedy.

davis13 wrote on April 19, 2007 10:41 AM:

(Specter blows so much smoke.

Specter: "I'd like you to win this debate. "READ:"Give me a crumb to justify my final vote. Anything, anything, I’m desperate here. You can do it dude.")

Specter is all talk no action. He's rolled over on cue so many times he should teach an obidience class.

Blue Patriot wrote on April 19, 2007 10:42 AM:

Gonzo just said that "poor judgement" was a reason for firing a USA... You'd think this guy would have a little more sympathy for such things.

Kick this former Bush administration official to the curb, already!

Off2xtremes wrote on April 19, 2007 10:43 AM:

He's all over the board. "I don't remember my reasons then, but I've since learned . . . " However, he says he only has limited involvement. If he had limited involvement, he had no reasons, only accepting what Sampson told him. Which is it?

Michael Stevens wrote on April 19, 2007 10:43 AM:

Brownback is actually asking some important, if not biting questions.

KC wrote on April 19, 2007 10:46 AM:

re: Brownback

I think he's unintentionally helping the Dems. Compare Gonzales' clear recollection of those USA firings vs. the throw-Sampson-under-the-bus defense on the other ones.

smacfarl wrote on April 19, 2007 10:46 AM:

This Gonzales makes me sick. That the republicans keep throwing him rope, is sad. I don't remember, I can't recall, but I have since learned. Sorry that doesn't cut it.

Apparently the strategy is gumming to death. The goal apparently is to try to contain the tone. The goal apparently is to make Gonzales seem like a nice guy.

The first Senators should put the hooks in and let the closing Senators pull the mask off.

You don't defer to process of which you are the head for your responsibilities.

To the republicans who are sick of towing the line, here is the response for Team Bush on this.

(15) I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!

(16) So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

Revelation 3:15-16

How can you fire people for running offices that they were not under control, or exercising poor judgement, when you your self are demonstrating the same in spades within at the DOJ itself. Team DOJ has had a full business quarter to get it together. First they picked the wrong approach, and apparently they have consistently under prepared on it.

This needs to be his last day in office.

uncle vester wrote on April 19, 2007 10:48 AM:

Herb Kohl is on Biskupic.

Is he leading up to the Georgia Thompson conviction/acquittal?

kiki wrote on April 19, 2007 10:49 AM:

"I don't recall. I don't recall. I don't recall. I don't recall. I don't recall. I don't recall. I don't recall. I don't recall. I don't recall. I don't recall. I don't recall. I don't recall. I don't recall. I don't recall. I don't recall. I don't recall. I don't recall. I don't recall. I don't recall. I don't recall. I don't recall. I don't recall. I don't recall. I don't recall. I don't recall. I don't recall. I don't recall."

kiki wrote on April 19, 2007 10:51 AM:

Not to omit the Gonzalez classic: "I don't recall not remembering."

uncle vester wrote on April 19, 2007 10:51 AM:

He spent all that time memorizing what was on The Do Not Recall list.

code: "attack"

TomInMaine wrote on April 19, 2007 10:53 AM:

This is the second time that Grassly is conviently away from asking questions to Gonzo.

What gives? What does Grassly know that we don't.

It may be just over active cynasism on my part but coincidences like this don't just happen.

Watching Gonzo testify is enough to make one sick to his stomach, what a sleezebag!

off2xtremes wrote on April 19, 2007 10:53 AM:

He's been waiting to drop that Ney point in all morning. Unfortunately, it wasn't really responsive to any question being asked. It's like, "State your name for the record." In response, "We didn't wait to take Ney's plea until after the election."

MB wrote on April 19, 2007 10:53 AM:

Not about Alberto Gonzales?!?

Seriously, if there were a God, lightning would strike him where he sits.

KC wrote on April 19, 2007 10:57 AM:

Gonzo, proving politics aren't involved: "We took a plea from Ney 6 weeks before the election"

Right--you took a plea ONE ENTIRE MONTH after Ney withdrew from the race. What a bold, apolitical move.

Code: fear

MB wrote on April 19, 2007 10:57 AM:

And then it would arc over to Hatch.

Anonymous wrote on April 19, 2007 10:57 AM:

Again with the " I do not recall remembering" crap.
Sampson did same thing.

Oh oh...Freudian slip: " I can't interfere with this investigation..BUT ( I have asked OPR ofice to look into this"

BUT is always the eraser word in a sentence..

JP wrote on April 19, 2007 10:58 AM:

I'm starting to think that Hatch and Gonzo rehearsed together.

Anonymous wrote on April 19, 2007 10:59 AM:

Hatch is humiliating himself.

Anonymous wrote on April 19, 2007 10:59 AM:

Hatch makes me ill.

sparkplug wrote on April 19, 2007 11:02 AM:

its obvious gonzales has never handled any trial work. he doesn't even recognize the softballs hatch is throwing him, and hatch knows it. all hatch wants are one word answers, and gonzales keeps going on and on, risking screwing up the answer, so hatch has to cut him off. pretty funny.

Figbash wrote on April 19, 2007 11:02 AM:

BUT is always the eraser word in a sentence..
Posted by:
Date: April 19, 2007 10:57 AM

Ah, yes. Everything before the but is bullshit.

Is there is ANYONE more odious in the US Senate than Orrin Hatch? He gives me extreme agita.

Michael Stevens wrote on April 19, 2007 11:03 AM:

Hatch is throwing big, slow, softballs.

Maybe I shouldn't be, but I'm actually surprised Hatch is attaching himself to Gonzo. Hatch is a lot of things, but he's not a complete idiot. He has to know Gonzo's chances of surviving this hearing are slim or none.

KC wrote on April 19, 2007 11:03 AM:

Hatch: "You travel a lot, right? You are in all kinds of meetings, right? You really don't have time to do any one thing well, right?"

KC wrote on April 19, 2007 11:04 AM:

Hatch: "You travel a lot, right? You are in all kinds of meetings, right? You really don't have time to do any one thing well, right?"

Code: flower

Pretty good, but "Softball" would've been better.

El Borba wrote on April 19, 2007 11:06 AM:

KC-
You have to change the rules for the “Gonzo drinking game”.
I’m drunk already (and we’ve got an hour to go before lunch)!

Code: “past”, as in “past me tha bottle agin”

bobh wrote on April 19, 2007 11:06 AM:

Feinstein :
who wanted to change the law?

Finally?

code: neck - in the noose

bobh wrote on April 19, 2007 11:08 AM:

Feinstein: Who was the 'decider'?

Interesting question?

El Borba wrote on April 19, 2007 11:11 AM:

If he didn't add names to the list or take names off, does he deny that he shared his knowledge of legislator complaints with Mr. Sampson?

Code: “right”, as in we’ve got the right to know what really happened

KC wrote on April 19, 2007 11:11 AM:

**UPDATED GONZO DRINKING GAME** --Requires one eyedropper and several cases of beer.

Every time he says "my recollection", take a drop.

Every time he says "I had limited involvement", take a drop.

Every time he says "I was not responsible", take a drop.

Every time he says "With all due respect", take a drop.

Every time he says "I'll have to get back to you", take the whole eyedropper.

And yes, you'll probably still end up in detox.

Michael Stevens wrote on April 19, 2007 11:12 AM:

Drinking rules alteration.

Gonzo gives a straight answer to any question from a Democrat = Drink

(no chance of getting drunk)

MB wrote on April 19, 2007 11:14 AM:

You're right, Stevens - Hatch is a very smart guy. Or maybe that's was. In all seriousness, perhaps age is beginning to take a real toll?

Anonymous wrote on April 19, 2007 11:16 AM:

I think Hatch wants to replace Gonzales as AG. Being the admin's point man helps prevent the appearance of opportunism.

El Borba wrote on April 19, 2007 11:19 AM:

Did anyone else catch that ‘gotcha’ smile Sen. Feinstein cracked before her last question. Watch out for what she unloads with if they get to a second round of questions today.

Code: round (as in second)

Michael Stevens wrote on April 19, 2007 11:27 AM:

I've heard that rumor as well, but I don't give it any credence.

Why would Hatch want to step down as Senator to become AG for a year and a half?

He was elected in a landslide just 6 months ago. Even if he's tired of running for office, he has 5 and 1/2 years left in his current term.

psyopswatcher wrote on April 19, 2007 12:14 PM:

I saw Feinstein giving Leahy the nod after his interjection of all the USA's ROUTINELY replaced by incoming administrations. Got that point across.

...
Feingold: Not gonna cut it with me.
...

Who's going to ask why RNC email was used.

SC: rate.. At this rate, he's cooked. Stick a fork in him.

adilla wrote on April 19, 2007 12:21 PM:

The Senators should inquire among the following line: who was responsible for the change through the Patriot Act to the process by which it was done.

Gonzales says he doesn't like it: was he aware that change was been persuit at the time. if not, shouldn't he had been. If yes, why did he allow it to go through ..why didn't he make the Senators aware of it(particularly Specter)

If not, shouldn't those at the Justice Departmant that knew of it should have informed him. Is the person at Justice most responsible for it still working there? should they be fired for letting him down? why wasn't he informed?

who was ultimately responsible for that idea? ...was it the White House?

El Borba wrote on April 19, 2007 12:21 PM:

Watch Senator A-Buck-A-Rug patch those holes up as fast as he can.

This is desperation at its finest.

Code: “jewel&rdquo, as in “a jewel of a plan&rdquo

adilla wrote on April 19, 2007 12:23 PM:

he has more than a month to find out everything about that Patriot Act idea. "I'm not aware" and "I do not recall" should not cut it.

NCProsecutor wrote on April 19, 2007 12:28 PM:

Damn, Lindsey Graham is sort of giving the AG the business. That's kind of surprising.

El Borba wrote on April 19, 2007 12:34 PM:

NCProsecutor-
You are right.
After the initial softballs and patch job, Buck-A-Rug actually got down to business, or at least he took a few steps in that direction.
But compare it to Durban now, and he still looks like a softball pitcher (low-pitch, of course, nothing high-minded about the GOP’s intentions here).

Code: mine (as in dig a little deeper)

psyopswatcher wrote on April 19, 2007 12:42 PM:

Schumer just tore him a new one: You can't have it both ways.
...

Graham: o did you just want to get rid of them. ...

Leahy to press: I was disappointed with his answers.

Press (someone in the galley) counted 55 times he said "I don't recall."

Mr.Murder wrote on April 19, 2007 12:47 PM:

Cummins fired first. Arkansas Sec. of State found taking bribes from an ES&S subsidiary, the man doing the bribe promoted from Sequoia to ES&S.
http://www.ejfi.org/Voting/Voting-110.htm#arkansas

Arkansas Secretary of State pleads guilty to taking bribes in computer voting equipment case
Top

© 2002 The Baton Rouge Advocate

Reproduced under the Fair Use exception of 17 USC § 107 for noncommercial, nonprofit, and educational use.

February 5, 2002 — "Arkansas Secretary of State Bill McCuen pleaded guilty to felony charges that he took bribes, evaded taxes and accepted kickbacks. Part of the case involved Business Records Corp. [now merged into Election Systems & Software ] , a Dallas company that sold Arkansas computerized systems for recording corporate and voter registration records.

Arkansas officials said the scheme involved...then-BRC employee Tom Eschberger...Eschberger got immunity from prosecution for his cooperation. Today, he's a top executive of ES&S."

psyopswatcher wrote on April 19, 2007 12:49 PM:

Schumer just tore him a new one: You can't have it both ways.
...

Graham: o did you just want to get rid of them. ...

Leahy to press: I was disappointed with his answers.

Press (someone in the galley) counted 55 times he said "I don't recall."
...

Schumer to Press: So many contradictions. Performed so poorly, doesn't have the trust of the American People, is the admin. so bunkered that they're going to keep him.

He seems to be far less qualified than the attorneys he's fired.

Abbot and Costello He did it.

They're trying to patch a few good reasons together.

Subbornness and lack of understanding. That they don't give a hoot about anyone outside the admin, in terms of the congress, the people who work there, the American people.

El Borba wrote on April 19, 2007 3:21 PM:

Is this thread still alive, or was another started for the afternoon session?

If it is alive, wasn’t it interesting how Kyl tried to act tough before he started his rah-rah stuff?

Code: tooth (as in how many were missing in Kyl’s line of questioning)

El Borba wrote on April 19, 2007 3:26 PM:

Looks like the live discussion moved over to

http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/003058.php

Code: where

psyopswatcher wrote on April 19, 2007 3:42 PM:

It seems like Kyle and Specter are tasking Gonzo with 'things-to-do' unrelated to the firings. Like he'll still have a job when this is said and done.

SC: sound. Are those the sounds of 'the fix is in'?